Old Owl Posted 30 March , 2017 Share Posted 30 March , 2017 9 hours ago, Medaler said: Well, I'm with you 100%. I suppose the main reason I back your view is that the humble British soldier never seemed to share these latterly developed hightened sensibilities. If it was good enough for them, then its good enough for me. Surely it is no less disrespectful than the frequent references we find to the "undetected crime medal" - AKA the LSGC. To me its all part of the same ethos that makes me respect them all the more. In a sense, its a foil to the "Prussian militarism" that they believed typified their enemy. That little bit of disrespect that made Tommy who he was. Mike I think that you are possibly missing the point. Calling medals 'Pip,Squeak and Wilfred' is absolutely fine and the LS&GC the 'undetected crime medal' is quite humerous and in no way disrespectful, but to call a 'Memorial Plaque' a 'Dead Man's Penny' is to a degree disrespectful because it relates to a serviceman or woman who gave their life for King and Country which is totally seperate and sensitive issue. Purely my own opinion. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 30 March , 2017 Share Posted 30 March , 2017 Personally, the most disrespectful term is referring to veterans as 'vets'. If we can't be bothered to use the whole word it's come to a pretty pass. And vets stand around in fields with their arms up cows' arses. There. I feel better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 30 March , 2017 Share Posted 30 March , 2017 21 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said: Personally, the most disrespectful term is referring to veterans as 'vets'. If we can't be bothered to use the whole word it's come to a pretty pass. And vets stand around in fields with their arms up cows' arses. There. I feel better. Or calling veterinarians "vets"????? vet, n.1 Pronunciation: /vɛt/ Frequency (in current use): Etymology: Contraction of veterinarian n. and adj. or veterinary adj. and n. Thesaurus » Categories » 1. A veterinary surgeon. colloq. 1862 H. Marryat One Year in Sweden III. 328 A lieutenant, accompanied by the vet, did the honours of the stables. 1876 F. G. Burnaby Ride to Khiva (ed. 3) xv. 136 The Kirghiz themselves have but little faith in doctors or vets. 1883 E. Pennell-Elmhirst Cream Leicestersh. 223 A battered stud was left in the hands of the groom and the vet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Filsell Posted 30 March , 2017 Share Posted 30 March , 2017 (edited) Until it can be proven that the Dead Man's Penny was not used by vets - a perfectly acceptable term in the US and long used - and perhaps not even then, I refuse to be offended by the term. You illustrate my point that the we are now moving into the twilight world of offence seeking. I am quite sure the old soldier Who told me, "I don't care what they call me, as long as they don't call me late for breakfast", had a better grip on life's realities than those who want buildings renamed because someone somewhere lived his ( usually his) life and did what he did in another time and another place where they did things differently. The latest stupidity is that a cigarette maker - responsible no doubt for giving man the gift of lung cancer - is actually hammered for buying tobacco from a nation which then practiced safety. Frankly the stupidity of the protesters and the lily livered people who accept their bullying offend me. Grip getting needed against these language bullies. Edited 31 March , 2017 by David Filsell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 30 March , 2017 Share Posted 30 March , 2017 11 hours ago, Old Owl said: I think that you are possibly missing the point. Calling medals 'Pip,Squeak and Wilfred' is absolutely fine and the LS&GC the 'undetected crime medal' is quite humerous and in no way disrespectful, but to call a 'Memorial Plaque' a 'Dead Man's Penny' is to a degree disrespectful because it relates to a serviceman or woman who gave their life for King and Country which is totally seperate and sensitive issue. Purely my own opinion. Robert Not me missing the point at all. Sardonic humour has always had its place. In many cases it's actually a coping mechanism for those who really have been forced to stand in another mans entrails all morning. I would answer that is just as much a part of understanding their experience as anything else - as is understanding the irreverent streak that has run through British soldiery for probably about as long as there has been a British soldiery. If however you choose to take offence at certain aspects of Tommy and his behaviour, you are actually just taking your place in a long line of others that also stretches back over those same centuries. Kipling was quite erudite it about I seem to remember...... An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints, Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints; While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, fall be'ind," But it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyH Posted 31 March , 2017 Share Posted 31 March , 2017 (edited) Streuth, All I said was that I thought it was "a little bit disrespectful" (in post # 5) I didn't want the Spanish Inquisition BillyH. Edited 31 March , 2017 by BillyH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 31 March , 2017 Share Posted 31 March , 2017 On 28/03/2017 at 07:32, trajan said: The popular name does make the archaeologist in me think of the coin sometimes placed in the mouth of the deceased during Greek and Roman times to pay Charon for the crossing of the River Acheron. Perhaps some erudite journalist came up with the analogy in the popular press at some point after these began to be issued, given how the metal used is akin to that of the contemporary penny? Trajan The OED defines 'death penny' as n. †(a) Sc. (app.) a penny paid as duty on the death of a person (obs. rare); (b) Greek Mythol. an obol (obol n.) placed in the mouth of a corpse, with which to pay the ferryman in Hades; (c) each of two pennies placed on the eyelids of a corpse to keep them closed. It cites* a 1753 translation of work by James VI and I, and other separate pre-WW1 usages in texts dated 1863, 1898 and 1905. So the phrase was already established in British English writing. It sounds as if your theory has merit, given that the piece resembles a coin in shape and tone. Gwyn *1753 tr. King James VI. & I. in W. Maitland Hist. Edinb. viii. 489/1 By these Presents do give and grant, and for us and our Successors, perpetually confirm to our beloved the Minister, Elders, and Deacons of the Church Session of Leith..in the Name and Behalf of the Poor of the Hospital of the same, present and to come, all the Lands, tenements,..Dail-silver, Death-pennies, [etc.]. 1863 G. J. Whyte-Melville Gladiators III. 258 Scatter a handful of dust over my forehead, and lay the death-penny on my tongue. 1898 Hearth & Home 29 Sept. 743/1 The miner lay in bed,..his eyes marked with dull circles, as if the death-penny had already lain on them a long time. 1905 Month Nov. 463 It was like booking a passage across the dark Unseen: crossing the Styx, with Charon at the prow. And instinctively I fumbled for the death penny. "death, n." OED Online. Oxford University Press, March 2017. Web. 31 March 2017. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 6 May , 2017 Share Posted 6 May , 2017 On 3/30/2017 at 04:47, David Filsell said: Pip, Squeak and Wilfred were most certainly the terms "of the day" named after comic strip of the time. The attitude to the memorial plaque has changed over the years. They have been called the "dead man's penny" for as long as I can remember, however I have always treated them with respect and considered them a very sad object. In the 80s, one time at the Camden Markets a dealer of assorted junk had a pile of them over a foot high, obviously purchased from a scrap metal dealer. I found the way the UK secondhand dealers handled them back then, very distressing. Similarly since the 60s, I knew the trio as "Pip, Squeak & Wilfred" after the cartoon strip, and some of the old soldiers on Anzac Day were quite proud to refer to them that way. There was no disrespect intended nor offence taken by that name. Cheers Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonbem Posted 6 May , 2017 Share Posted 6 May , 2017 Anyway back on the thread.... My mother has the Memorial Scroll (and original tube it came in) relating to her Uncle Fred (Ward Pte. 50236), but there is no sign of the Memorial Plaque, I've read through http://www.greatwar.co.uk/memorials/memorial-plaque.htm#distribute and the detail regarding Army Form W.5080. - Thus I believe the plaque would have been produced and sent. As they could have been sent a few months apart, it is a mystery if it survives and its location. My mother is currently trying to locate the scroll in her "neat and ordered"(?) spare room, so I can see if we can identify the postage date on the scroll tube. The plaque hasn't come up in any of my "ebay" and the like searches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 May , 2017 Share Posted 6 May , 2017 9 minutes ago, jonbem said: ... The plaque hasn't come up in any of my "ebay" and the like searches. Good luck! perseverance really is the name of the game on an issue like this - ask any of the medal collectors trying to complete pairs and trios from the GW - especially when it comes to an extra MM or something similar! On the plus side for now, though, you do have the scroll and the tube, something that most people will not have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonbem Posted 6 May , 2017 Share Posted 6 May , 2017 I am hoping that with the scroll, the MIC, the Medal Roll and the Soldiers Effects that we can apply for the Medal pair. I don't think they were claimed or issued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 7 May , 2017 Share Posted 7 May , 2017 19 hours ago, jonbem said: Anyway back on the thread.... My mother has the Memorial Scroll (and original tube it came in) relating to her Uncle Fred (Ward Pte. 50236), but there is no sign of the Memorial Plaque, I've read through http://www.greatwar.co.uk/memorials/memorial-plaque.htm#distribute and the detail regarding Army Form W.5080. - Thus I believe the plaque would have been produced and sent. As they could have been sent a few months apart, it is a mystery if it survives and its location. My mother is currently trying to locate the scroll in her "neat and ordered"(?) spare room, so I can see if we can identify the postage date on the scroll tube. The plaque hasn't come up in any of my "ebay" and the like searches. There are quite a number of plaques that may have been issued to either a "Fred Ward" or "Frederick Ward". The odds of one turning up for you at some point are not by any means impossible. By pure coincidence I own a medal for a Northumberland Fusilier fatality by the name of Ward, but it's not your Fred - You did send me running to my records to make me check mind! Good luck with the hunt - don't ever give up hope. Regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonbem Posted 9 May , 2017 Share Posted 9 May , 2017 Hi all in case some members have not seen the Army Form W.5080. for claiming the Memorial Scroll & Plaque here is an example Regards Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303man Posted 9 May , 2017 Share Posted 9 May , 2017 This was a Minister of Religions attitude to Army Form 5080. Bear in mind some relatives of the deceased would have been illiterate and not known someone that could countersign the form, hence a lot of plaques never being sent out. The number of plaques made 1,355,000 and numbers issued are another story. Every plaque and scroll had a unique reference number, the highest number I have encountered is 992040 the last plaque was issued 31/03/30 some 16 years after the first casualty. Widows quickly re-married as the bread winner was gone etc etc. Is Army Form W. 5080 an absolute necessity ? The next-of-kin of each deceased soldier is required to fill it up in order " to enable the Officer in charge of Records to dispose of the plaque and commemorative scroll " which is being issued. Information is to be given as to name, age, and residence of the following relatives: widow, father, mother, children, brother of the full blood, brother of the half-blood, sister of the full blood, sister of the half-blood. In case the soldier had no relatives in any of these categories, the claimant is required to supply similar information about the soldier's grand- parents, nephews and nieces, uncles and aunts. As a kindly concession, the claimant is informed that it is unnecessary to give particulars as to uncles, &c., by marriage. This form has, I believe, been already filled in each case to enable the authorities to dispose of the effects of the deceased. Why cannot the Officer in charge of Effects give the name of next akin to Officer i/o Records and save trouble? I have had to witness the signature of many of these forms, and in several cases to fill them up, extracting the required information with difficulty from ignorant claimants unable to fill up the form themselves and rather vague about the family history. At first I regarded it as mere matter of routine, and in cases where the information available was not definite gave in- definite replies to some of the questions. This will not do. I have had one form returned for the exact date of a parent's death, which took place some twenty-six years ago, and for the last known address of a sister who went to Australia and has not been heard of for four years. I do not grudge time and trouble when it is necessary in the services of our dead soldiers' relatives, but I strongly object to what appears to me needless expenditure of effort both on my part and on the part of Government officials, already, as we are told, unable to keep pace with the issue of pensions and allowances. If this goes on I shall have to " gie up the meenistry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonbem Posted 19 May , 2017 Share Posted 19 May , 2017 On 5/6/2017 at 15:55, jonbem said: Anyway back on the thread.... My mother has the Memorial Scroll (and original tube it came in) relating to her Uncle Fred (Ward Pte. 50236), but there is no sign of the Memorial Plaque, I've read through http://www.greatwar.co.uk/memorials/memorial-plaque.htm#distribute and the detail regarding Army Form W.5080. - Thus I believe the plaque would have been produced and sent. As they could have been sent a few months apart, it is a mystery if it survives and its location. My mother is currently trying to locate the scroll in her "neat and ordered"(?) spare room, so I can see if we can identify the postage date on the scroll tube. The plaque hasn't come up in any of my "ebay" and the like searches. A couple of pics, though unfortunately the tube label has seen better days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted 19 May , 2017 Share Posted 19 May , 2017 On 06/05/2017 at 15:55, jonbem said: Anyway back on the thread.... My mother has the Memorial Scroll (and original tube it came in) relating to her Uncle Fred (Ward Pte. 50236), but there is no sign of the Memorial Plaque, I've read through http://www.greatwar.co.uk/memorials/memorial-plaque.htm#distribute and the detail regarding Army Form W.5080. - Thus I believe the plaque would have been produced and sent. As they could have been sent a few months apart, it is a mystery if it survives and its location. My mother is currently trying to locate the scroll in her "neat and ordered"(?) spare room, so I can see if we can identify the postage date on the scroll tube. The plaque hasn't come up in any of my "ebay" and the like searches. jon I can put on the http://www.britishmedalforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=36456 as I update it every month. you never know , might be in someones collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonbem Posted 19 May , 2017 Share Posted 19 May , 2017 1 minute ago, chaz said: I can put on the http://www.britishmedalforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=36456 as I update it every month. you never know , might be in someones collection ok by me regards Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted 19 May , 2017 Share Posted 19 May , 2017 (edited) its on current list, always towards last postings. no one else is looking for him. also Ive just checked the scroll tube Ive got it looks like DEC 19 on the stamp, but date not clear as flat stamp on a round tube. not on Callingtons web site either Edited 19 May , 2017 by chaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303man Posted 21 May , 2017 Share Posted 21 May , 2017 On 2017-5-19 at 17:54, chaz said: its on current list, always towards last postings. no one else is looking for him. also Ive just checked the scroll tube Ive got it looks like DEC 19 on the stamp, but date not clear as flat stamp on a round tube. not on Callingtons web site either The majority of Plaques were Dispatched in 1921 - 22 By 30 Jun 1922 981,012 had been produced. 669,334 of these at Woolwich the earlier ones at the Converted Brewery in Church Road, West Acton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 5 June , 2017 Share Posted 5 June , 2017 On 3/26/2017 at 13:20, BillyH said: You may not like me saying this but "Dead Man's Penny" - admittedly a term that is very often used - seems a little bit disrespectful to some people such as myself, perhaps only to me though? Officially it is actually a Memorial Plaque. I also think your great grandfather was probably 1003958 not 1005839? Apologies if I come across as a bit pedantic. BillyH. No Sir on the like wise I have nothing but Respect for what you said. I will from now on do the same as you. I had never thought about it as you thank you for waking me up. Kerry Milutin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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