Group of sailors from HMS Vivid

[Maritime17]

Hello,

 

I have this photo of my Grandfather. The hat bands read HMS Vivid. His record shows he was at HMS Vivid 4 times.

25 July 12 to 24 Sept 12   Rating Boy 1

14 Jan 17 to 9 March 17   Rating Able Seaman

13 July 18 to 12 Aug 18    Rating Able Seaman

1  Apr 20 to  14 May 20    Leading Seaman

 

I am presuming the photo was taken between 1917 and 1920.

 

Does any one have any relatives who was at HMS Vivid during those dates? It would be interesting to try and identify the sailors and try and get the correct date.

My Grandfather Thomas Neil Davis is the middle chap in the bottom row.

 

Many thanks,

Sam

 

 

[The Inspector]

....Hi Sam

You already have the following but it helps when others are searching

For everyone's info. Thomas Neil Davis, b.18.5.1895  Wavertree, Liverpool d.8.10.1978 (Twin to Cathleen Maud Davis) Rhostryfan, Caernarvonshire, Wales,  Service  No. J 18334, Star,Vic, Brit medals. Also served WW2. and therafter Sea Cadets

Regards Barry

Photos via Google with names. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/62694368@N02/8676460246.

1.  

Edited 30 January , 2017 by The Inspector

[horatio2]

I see that your grandfather was also an Albert Medal (later George Cross) winner. You must be very proud of what he did - http://www.victoriacrossonline.co.uk/thomas-n-davis-am/4589093753 (which wrongly says he was RNR).

Edited 30 January , 2017 by horatio2

[Maritime17]

Hi Barry,

Thanks for putting that info up. I was aware of the photo on flickr and have asked for the names like many others but no reply yet. I will attempt to put my photo on there. I am not very computer savvy.

[Maritime17]

Hi horatio 2,

Yes, I am very proud of my Grandfather. I only met him a few times as we lived overseas. My most treasured possession was a letter he sent to me when I was 10. It said " Always ask questions, who, what, when, where, why and how." I have never forgotten that. I kept it in an old tin with a large copper ship's nail I found on a beach in Trinidad. Both were destroyed in a fire. 40 years on and I still think of that letter.

 

My Uncle never told us that my Grandfather had passed away so we never got to attend the funeral. He was buried at sea from HMS Bulldog. We have a few photos of that occasion.

This research into his life is fascinating. He certainly did a lot of exciting things.

 

I am still trying to find out about his parents. I have been told they died in a ship fire and he and his twin sister were orphaned. It is a mystery!

 

All the best,

 

Sam

[John Milner]

His service record is on Find My Past, interesting reading.

 

Regards

 

John

[Bartimeus]

In your grandfather's day the Royal Navy was divided into three "Port Divisions" - Chatham, Portsmouth and Devonport - and every ship and sailor was assigned to one of these for administrative purposes. Each Division had its own dockyard, barracks and specialist training schools, HMS Vivid being the barracks for Devonport Division. His service record shows us that your grandfather belonged to Devonport Division, which fits with the photo.

 

Sailors would pass through their Division's barracks often, either when paying off from one draft and awaiting the next, or to attend training courses.

 

A sailor's rating (what the other services call rank) would be shown by insignia worn on the left sleeve. For Petty Officers and below, they would also wear good conduct stripes here. On the right sleeve he would wear badges indicating his trade.

 

Your grandfather received his first good conduct badge (GCB) in 1916, after three year's adult service (i.e. from the declared age of 18). At this point he would have put a red stripe up on his left sleeve, just above the elbow. On 30th October 1917 he was promoted to Leading Seaman when serving aboard HMS Highflyer, and would have added an anchor to his left sleeve, above his GCB. However, he lost both rating and GCB on 1st May 1918, when a court martial gave him two months detention for "conduct prejudicial to good order and naval discipline". The notation on his service record is not completely clear, but it looks like his GCB was restored to him on 20th December 1918. He did not regain his rating of Leading Seaman until 10th February 1919.

 

These dates should help to narrow down the period in which the photograph was taken. We already know it cannot be earlier than 1918 by the service chevrons clearly visible on the lower right sleeve of the sailor kneeling front left (I believe they were first announced circa May 1918). If on the original you can make out an anchor and stripe on your grandfather's left sleeve then you'll know the picture dates to April / May 1920. If there is nothing there then it must be July / August 1918.

 

None of the other sailors seem to be wearing anything in the way of insignia that could help to single them out, so unless someone actually recognises a face I fear it will be difficult to take it any further.

 

The photograph on the flickr link provided must have been taken no earlier than 1922, judging by the fact that many of the men have already been issued with their full Great War service medal entitlement. Your grandfather would have put up the ribbon of his Albert Medal when it was gazetted in March 1918; he would have added that of the 1914-15 Star when it was announced in 1919 (forget when exactly), and the British War and Victory Medals when their ribbons were approved for wear subsequently. I mention this in case it helps dating any other photos you may have.

 

Interesting to see that your grandfather left the Royal Navy in June 1920 to take up work with the Chinese Maritime Customs as a Probationary Tidewaiter (i.e. a customs officer who checked ships goods for duties). Their records show that he took up this appointment in January 1921 and resigned (as second class Tidewaiter) in August 1924.

 

Bart

 

 

Edited 30 January , 2017 by Bartimeus

[The Inspector]

....Hi Sam

For the benefit of anyone who likes to dig....

The 1901 and 1911  census show Thomas Neil and his twin Cathleen (Kathleen) Maud boarding with the Booth family who did not have any children of their own and were married 1900 according to the 1911 census.

However the 1901 shows them with a son Arnett B Booth b.1885,Frodsham. also they did adopt a son Harry M Parkes (r?) b.1885 Liverpool....same age as Arnett. but only Tom Davis and Kathleen M Davis, 15yrs are with them in 1911.

The death of their parents would logically be before 1901. Where did you get your info. re them being orphaned and the ship fire?

Also your g/grandparents Thomas Davis and Norah Kavanagh?

Looking forward to searching ..

Regards Barry

The 1891 census has Arnett N Booth b.1885 Frodsham d 1960 Littleborough (my location!)...same father ??different mother Mary A and Mary J....intrigued....Arnett is one of five children.....looking

Edited 30 January , 2017 by The Inspector

[The Inspector]

Hi All

Arnett Nicholas Booth, b. Novertin? Cheshire abt 1887 was a Chelsea Pensioner, service start year 1906, KOSW's No.8845, can anyone expand on this?

Regards Barry

[Maritime17]

Hi John,

 

I have his service record. I posted it on my thread about Submarine service. It is very interesting reading. I also have his Enlistment papers from the Fleet Air Arms Museum. He was 1 1/2 inches under height but because he was fit and healthy he was allowed to join.

 

Take care,

 

Sam

[Maritime17]

Hi Bart,

 

Thanks so much for the very interesting detective work. I am trying to get hold of the original photo and hopefully some others.

Capt. Swales at the Fleet Air Arms Museum where I got my GF's Enrolment Papers was very helpful in explaining some things to me. He sent me the links to the Logs of HMS Highflyer (naval-history.net).

 

30 April 1918 

Bermuda

Int. C.M. Prisoner to Devonshire

 

 

1 May 1918

Bermuda

Court Martial held on board Devonshire

 

Devonshire Log

 

30 April 1918

Bermuda

7pm received one Court Martial prisoner on board

 

1 May 1918

Place: Bermuda

Lat 32.3, Long -64.7

7:00am: Sent Working Party to Steamer

8:00am: Fired Court Martial gun and broke Jack [Jack is a Flag Signal]

9:30am: Held Court Martial on board10:00am: Hands employed ship and as requisite

1:00pm: Sent Working Party to steamer

2:00pm: Leave to Red and Blue Watches till 7:00am

2:30pm: Hauled down Jack

4:00pm: Discharged 1 Court Martial offender

11:00pm: Picket boat drew fires

 

How exciting is it that information like this can be found!

 

Although the prisoner isn't named the info ties in very neatly. My GF was given 2 months Detention - presumably in a Bermudan prison! The next ship he is listed on is HMS Ceasar

21 June 1918.

 

Too much of a coincidence not to be my GF. The question is "What did he do?"

 

Sam

[Maritime17]

Hi Barry,

 

Thanks for all the digging! I knew about the Booth family and the 1910 and 1911 Census. It was my Mother who told me about the ship fire and them being orphaned. I have looked for information about the parents but found nothing - as yet. It says on the Birth Certificate that the father was an actor.

 

My Uncle, now passed away, gave some background info to the "One Step Further " book about George Cross recipients but it contradicts what the Census records say.

.

[Maritime17]

Hi Bart,

 

In response to the Chinese Maritime Customs. The Bristol Uni. website was where I found definite proof of his service. According to my Mother my GF was in love with a Chinese girl. The Communists beheaded her and stuck her head on some railings. Maybe that is why he left. My GF was fluent in spoken and written Chinese. I am told he became involved with Chiang Kai Shek. My Father said he saw a photo of my GF with Chiang Kai Shek in a Taiwanese Museum about 30 years ago - but he can't remember which one or anything about the photo -soooooo frustrating!

 

My GF stayed in China and I believe Hong Kong until 1928. Then he joined the Mercantile Marines in 1929.

 

I was told he tracked and chased pirates around the coast of China, Hong Kong and Sarawak but I haven't as yet found out who he was working with.

 

The Family say my GF never really spoke much of his time in China. They occasionally got snippets of info about his life.

 

All the best,

 

Sam

[Bartimeus]

Sam

 

The extracts from the logs tie up very nicely indeed ! I have no doubt they relate to your grandfather.

 

I'm also certain that he served his sentence in Bermuda. The court martial took place there on May 1st; there is then a time gap on his service certificate until June 21st when he is appointed to HMS Caesar (which was acting as a depot ship in Bermuda). The gap is because time in detention would not count towards his service engagement, or later towards  a possible pension.

 

His next ship, HMS Mutine, also fulfilled the function of a depot ship in Bermuda. I'd imagine the authorities were just waiting for the opportunity of a ship going in the right direction to get him back to his home port in the U.K. where he could pick up his next draft.

 

As to his offence, it is first described on his record as 'improper conduct', and his conviction was for 'acting to prejudice of good order and naval discipline'. Both phrases I think could be described as catch-alls . It might be worth trying to see what the Naval Discipline Act in force at the time had to say on the subject. Certainly 'improper' could be used in all sorts of senses to infer that someone wasn't doing what they were supposed to - one could be improperly absent from a ship or place of duty, improperly in possession of an item of equipment, carry out a duty improperly and so on. Similarly 'conduct prejudicial' can pretty much be made to apply to all manner of unspecified offences - in fact I believe the relevant article of the Act was known as 'the Captain's Cloak' for the wide scope it afforded. The fact that the ship was most likely at sea when the offence was recorded makes me wonder if it might have been related to a clash of personalities with a superior, or perhaps to something connected to his duty - sleeping on watch or suchlike. The Captain must have taken it seriously to have put it forward for court martial rather than dealt with it aboard. There don't seem to have been any other offenders tried with him, which might suggest an example was being made. Unfortunately I can't think of any records which might shed more light.

 

Your grandfather evidently had a most remarkable and eventful life - his time in China is most intriguing. For his time in submarines, have you had any contact with the Submarine Museum at Gosport ? They have good archives, and it seems they hold his Albert Medal. For those serving in submarines, you would normally expect to see the craft's number in brackets after the name of a depot ship or shore establishment such as Maidstone or Dolphin on a service record. They might be able to fill in the omission.

 

Bart

 

 

 

[Maritime17]

Hi Bart,

 

I shall research the Navy Discipline Act and see if anything sounds plausible. I wonder if dispatches sent back to Admiralty would mention anything.

 

His time in China is fascinating. I have read a few interesting books about the Chinese Maritime Customs. It won't be easy trying to access some of the records in China or find that photo in a Taiwanese Museum! Maybe I had better start learning Mandarin!

 

Regarding submarines. I have contacted the Museum at Gosport and am waiting to see if they have anything. I know the Albert Medal is there. It was donated to the Museum by my GF.

 

All the best,

 

Sam

[Maritime17]

Hi Barry,

 

I though you might find this interesting.

 

I was following a possible lead about my GF. Turns out he might have been a Prison Warder in Hong Kong from Dec 1924 to May1928. Then I found a Ship's (Malwa) passenger list. Leaving HK and arriving London Jan 1929. The proposed address was Quarry Bank, Weston, Cheshire with the Lloyd family. So I got the Cheshire Library to check the 1930 Electoral Register and my GF appeared to be living with the Lloyd family. Florence and 3 of her 6 children at 4 Quarry Bank Terrace, Weston, Cheshire.

 

Then someone helped me discover all this:

 

Florence LLOYD b 1880 was nee MILLWARD

1891 census
RG12; Piece: 2833; Folio: 151; Page: 31
Weston Parade

Thomas Riley (61) Runcorn
Mary J Riley (46)   Brierley Hill
Frances Riley (12)
Joseph Riley (11)
Thomas Howard (43)
William Howard (16) -  there is a HOWARD with the BOOTH family
William Lund (12)
Harry M Parker( 6) -  he is with the BOOTH family in 1901
Florence Millward (10) -  Stepdaughter married Thomas LLOYD
 

1. Marriage

Thomas Riley married Mary J MILLWARD at All Saints Runcorn 1890

All Saints Runcorn 24 Nov 1890

Thomas RILEY 61 widower Lab Mersey View Weston s/o William dec'd Lab

Mary J MILLWARD 4? widow Heath Road Weston Benjamin Skidmore dec'd stock taker

witnesses J Knapman Edith Knapman

*Thomas Riley died 1894

 

*On the 1910 census, Mary J BOOTH is shown as coming from Kingswinford Staffs, in 1891 Mary J RILEY nee MILLWARD states Brierley Hill , not that far apart, I suspect Mary J RILEY is now Mary J BOOTH is she a foster mother?

 

 

2.   Marriage

 Jun 1899, Prescot, 8b 1231
James Booth / Mary Jane Riley    

 

So that proves that is was my GF who was the Prison Warder in HK and explains the missing years in China / HK. I am still no closer to finding out what happened to his parents! but it is an interesting search!

Take care,

Sam                   

[The Inspector]

....Hi Sam,

Keep digging, it's amazing what can turn up out of the blue..very interesting.

Regards Barry

[Kath]

Sam, did you know there is your Davis family tree on Ancestry?

I think a Danish lady has done it.

Kath.

[Maritime17]

Hi Kath,

 

Yes, I did know. She is a friend of my Sister in NZ. The birth dates for the parents are just guesses and the bit about Somerset is an error. I have asked her to change it as it causes confusion.

 

I have just heard about "The Local Board of Guardians" and I wonder if they had anything to do with the twins placement with the Booth Family. They were on the 1901 and 1911 Census as Boarders with the Booths - someone must have been paying for their Board for all that time! I have contacted a library in Cheshire to see if they have any records for the Local Board of Guardians.

 

It is a mystery but I'm sure there are answers out there somewhere.

 

Thanks,

 

Sam

[The Inspector]

Hi Sam

LBG's see:- http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/01d4e3e6-f40b-44ed-90a7-23ccf39258b3

Regards Barry

[Maritime17]

Hi Barry,

 

I sent the Cheshire Office an email this morning. I will let you know if anything exciting crops up. Fingers crossed!

 

Sam

[karen57]

On 29/01/2017 at 22:11, Maritime17 said:

Hello,

 

I have this photo of my Grandfather. The hat bands read HMS Vivid. His record shows he was at HMS Vivid 4 times.

25 July 12 to 24 Sept 12   Rating Boy 1

14 Jan 17 to 9 March 17   Rating Able Seaman

13 July 18 to 12 Aug 18    Rating Able Seaman

1  Apr 20 to  14 May 20    Leading Seaman

 

I am presuming the photo was taken between 1917 and 1920.

 

Does any one have any relatives who was at HMS Vivid during those dates? It would be interesting to try and identify the sailors and try and get the correct date.

My Grandfather Thomas Neil Davis is the middle chap in the bottom row.

 

Many thanks,

Sam

 

 

Hi yes my grandfather was at HMS vivid 1918 - Daniel Lewis - he was a stoker 

 

[Madmeg]

I know the original post is a bit old but as it has come up again...

Births for Thomas Neil and Cathleen Maud registered in West Derby Jun 1895, Mother's name Kavanagh.

There are not many options for a marriage from 1870 on- one in Camberwell and one in St George Hanover Square in december 1895 ( so a bit late), one option in Bury for a Davies in 1878 . There is a marriage for a George Davies to a Margaret Cavanagh in Dudley but this couple seem to have had a daughter in Mar 1895 in Dudley ruling them out.

So far the only possible I have found for the ship fire is the Edinburgh Shipping Line Iona which caught fire about 15th September 1895 off Clacton while sailing from Scotland to London. There is a (somewhat distressing) report here https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3353679/3353683/68/G. E. Thomas, it's also on the British Newspaper Archive but I can only see the headings until NZ unlocks and I can get back to the library.

It seems to have broken out in the ladies saloon and all the victims are said to have been female. Only four are named in the newspaper report- Mrs Davis is not among those named.

There are other ship fires but all before May 1895. There is an explosion shown for 1896 but again I can't see the details.

Wondering where the names Thomas Davis and Norah Kavanagh came from above? Is it a posted tree? I havent found a marriage for them, nor a death for a Nora(h) Davis of a relevant age between 1895 and 1901.

Ref the Booths- James married Mary J of Kinswinford STS in 1900, his previous marriage was to Mary A Nicholls (from mother of older children) of Cheshire. Mary A was a year younger than him , Mary J a year older. NB can't definitively identify Mary J- all the marriages for various James at this time show the wife as being a Mary Ann or Mary Agnes or etc- no Mary J's to be seen- BUT not a Kavanagh which I thought might be a possible - ie a relative of the children. Kavanagh is Irish of course but I can't match an Irish marriage for a Nora to a Thomas Davis- but where DID Norah come from? Or father as Thomas for that matter? Birth certificate wouldn;t show mother's first name surely?

The fact that there are only the two children (I have excluded a child born in 1896 in the London area as Thomas and Cathleen are boarding out in Cheshire) makes it seem likely that the parents died when the children were very young as otherwise I would expect there to be other siblings. The Iona fire would seem to be the most likely for Mrs Davi(e)s but the records state only female passengers died and her name is not listed in anything I have found. Without a first name for her it is difficult to check. It still leaves Mr Davi(e)s.

Looking at his Find a Grave biography - wow! but just wondering if his gaining a medal for putting out a ship on fire could have got confused with the death of the parents?

If OP could give more details on his parents names that would be helpful. 

He surely deserved that medal!

[Zoe]

This may be a bit late on the post but I am looking into my Great Granduncle, he was a stoker at Vivid ii Oct 17 - June 18

[horatio2]

Welcome to the GWF, He was just one of many hundreds of stokers who passed through VIVID. If you have a question about him, give us his name and number.

Edited 25 November , 2021 by horatio2