Help need in Turkish translation of ID tag & pay book

[Robert Rytir]

27 minutes ago, shippingsteel said:

Had a chance to look at one of the other pages and translate the heading. I have a feeling that this will be ongoing. 

The thing is for every 1 piece that you work out you always learn 10x that much simply from doing all the research.

 

This kind of document makes for fascinating study and helps to put a 'human face' on the realities of the other side.

One of my great-uncles was one of those traipsing around the desert with the Light Horse so it is quite interesting.

 

Anyway the heading indicates this book did serve a dual purpose as a "paybook". But no entries have been made.

And this poor chap had been serving with the Ottoman army for more than a year.! Though this is hardly surprising.

 

Reports tell that Arab conscripts were poorly treated. Usually they were more than happy to 'come across' to the ALH.

The heading translates something like "For performing service with military, this payment packet is your recompense".

 

Cheers, SS

Well I'm happy that it is of interest and like you having these personal item's and being able to have some translation gives a human face to these item's and is a window into his life which is always not possible.

 

thank you again for help

Rob

[shippingsteel]

On 12/13/2016 at 16:21, Robert Rytir said:

As I said in my email to you we should start a thread on what Turkish souvenirs are out there that may have been picked up by diggers.

 

Well here is a piece from my collection which I thought may be appropriate to show here, especially regarding the use of the script.

My apologies for the image, I just popped it on the scanner.  This is an Ottoman belt buckle which was another souvenired item. 

 

This is very similar to the German buckles being of 2 piece construction, having 2 solder points at the back which attach the badge.

It features the standard address in the Ottoman script, which in this case is very florid with added in calligraphy (more complication)

 

As with any of this writing, if you can make out the letters, you can understand it. And if you can understand it, you can translate it.!

The first thing I like to do is rewrite the phrase in the Arabic script  عساکر شاهانه which then makes it readable as "assākir shāhānē

This translates into English as "Imperial Army". Note the use of the Star & Crescent symbol which carried through to modern Turkey. 

 

Cheers, SS

 

[trajan]

On 12/22/2016 at 02:16, shippingsteel said:

... The first thing I like to do is rewrite the phrase in the Arabic script  عساکر شاهانه which then makes it readable as "assākir shāhānē

This translates into English as "Imperial Army". ...

 

A minor quibble if I may... Surely shah-in-shah would be 'Imperial', while shah-ane is 'Royal'? Nice buckle though!

[trajan]

On 12/15/2016 at 00:16, shippingsteel said:

Well after a long process of guesswork, research and elimination I am finally going to give his unit as the 23rd Division.

The problem is that the handwriting eventually becomes more of a scribble after the clerk has done hundreds in a day.!

 

Did you get any further with this transcription / translation? 

 

Trajan

[michaeldr]

On 12/18/2016 at 08:39, shippingsteel said:

the 23rd Division was made up of the 3 Regiments shown, and each comprising of 3 Infantry Battalions.

I am still working on tracking the movements of these regiments during 1916 but the Ottoman records are incredibly sparse. 

The Australian history has the following to say about the Ottoman 23^rd Division in July 1916 (a few months before this chap was captured)

page 133 - “The 23rd Turkish Division, composed chiefly of Syrians, was at this time scattered about the garrisons of Sinai, and it was thought that part of this division might be with the 3rd. The Syrians, however, had always proved very inferior fighters, and it was not considered likely that the Turks would entrust them with serious participation in an important offensive movement.”

see https://www.awm.gov.au/images/collection/pdf/RCDIG1069595--1-.pdf

 

EDIT to add: 

There is an earlier ref to the Ottoman 23^rd Div. on page 99 here https://www.awm.gov.au/images/collection/pdf/RCDIG1069573--1-.pdf

“By the middle of May the brief cool season was over, and Sinai was glistening under the fierce heat of summer. The Turks were believed to have three divisions, the 3rd, 23rd, and 27th, in northern Sinai and southern Palestine, disposed roughly inside the quadrilateral El Arish, Bir el Hassana, Beersheba, and Gaza. In addition there was an Arab force in Sinai of about 4,000 Bedouins, chiefly drawn from the Ibn Rashid tribes, and also including some Egeil, the adventurous Moslem camel-dealers. These men were armed by the Turks with modern weapons, and a number of them had fought with reckless courage at Dueidar.”

Edited 14 January , 2017 by michaeldr

[shippingsteel]

Thank you for adding that extract Michael. I think that is about as good as we are going to get for the whereabouts of the 23rd Division during that period ... "scattered about the garrisons of Sinai" 

I had looked through some of the Turkish coverage of the major battles, but they certainly didn't rate much of a mention in those commentaries.

It is interesting that you quoted from that book, as I actually own a hard-copy (1st Edition) that I picked up digging through a 2nd hand bookstore.!

So it has been on the list to read through in the hope of finding something. But time is scarce, so I must thank you again for highlighting those points.

[trajan]

3 hours ago, michaeldr said:

The Australian history has the following to say about the Ottoman 23^rd Division in July 1916 (a few months before this chap was captured)...

 

Not a lot on Turkish Viki except:

 

Ağustos 1916, Aralık 1916 Savaş Düzeni[değiştir 

Ağustos 1916, Aralık 1916'da kolordu aşağıdaki şekilde yapılandırıldı:

8. Kolordu (Suriye-Filistin)

3. Tümen, 23. Tümen, 24. Tümen, 27. Tümen

 

With a reference back to: Edward J. Erickson, Order to Die: A History of the Ottoman Army in the First World War, Greenwood Press, 2001, ISBN 0-313-31516-7, p. 134, 154.

[Robert Rytir]

Thanks again to all that have contributed to this thread.

[trajan]

13 hours ago, Robert Rytir said:

Thanks again to all that have contributed to this thread.

 

It's a pleasure for all of us, I suspect, to help advance and share knowledge and information! That said, then if SS has abandoned work on pages 8 and 9, which he posted at no. 22, then I could try to get a little more done on this - but no promises!

 

By the way, does anyone following here have a copy of Erickson's Order to Die: A History of the Ottoman Army in the First World War, to check those pages 134 and 154 and/or give an opinion on the book itself?

 

Julian

[michaeldr]

2 hours ago, trajan said:

By the way, does anyone following here have a copy of Erickson's Order to Die: A History of the Ottoman Army in the First World War, to check those pages 134 and 154 

I don't have that book and Google don't help by omitting those two pages

however per the index they appear to be tables showing the "Disposition of Turkish Forces":-

p.134 covers August 1916, and p.154, December 1916

[trajan]

18 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

I don't have that book and Google don't help by omitting those two pages

however per the index they appear to be tables showing the "Disposition of Turkish Forces":-

p.134 covers August 1916, and p.154, December 1916

 

I knew from a search a year or so back that we have two copies of the Turkish language edition in our library (Size ölmeyi emrediyorum:Birinci Dünya Savaşı'nda Osmanlı ordusu), but I see now that thanks to a legacy donation, we have a copy of the original English edition also. I'll try and get hold of it tomorrow.

[trajan]

On 1/14/2017 at 16:21, trajan said:

Not a lot on Turkish Viki except: 

Ağustos 1916, Aralık 1916 Savaş Düzeni[değiştir 

Ağustos 1916, Aralık 1916'da kolordu aşağıdaki şekilde yapılandırıldı:

8. Kolordu (Suriye-Filistin)

3. Tümen, 23. Tümen, 24. Tümen, 27. Tümen

 

With a reference back to: Edward J. Erickson, Order to Die: A History of the Ottoman Army in the First World War, Greenwood Press, 2001, ISBN 0-313-31516-7, p. 134, 154.

 

On 1/15/2017 at 15:25, trajan said:

I see now that thanks to a legacy donation, we have a copy of the original English edition also. I'll try and get hold of it tomorrow.

 

Well, I actually got it today rather than 'tomorrow'!

 

P.134 does indeed show - as Michael deduced - a table showing the "Disposition of Turkish Forces August 1916", with the 23rd with VIII Corps with the 4th Army in "Syria-Palestine".

 

P.154 has a table also, showing the "Disposition of Turkish Forces December 1916", with the 23rd with VIII Corps with the 4th Army in "Syria-Palestine".

 

P.69-70 explains the 23rd as part of the attack force on the Suez Canal, flanking the 25th which made the crossing February 1915.

 

P.176 is for late 1917, with the 23rd in garrison at Adana and Mersin

 

P.200 is for October 26, 1918, with the 23rd headquartered at Adana, along with the Yildirim Army Group, but the main part of the division at Tarsus (as in St.Paul!).

 

So, nothing specific on events around 14th December 1916 (as Michael at post no. 4). But, sitting nearby to this copy of Erickson on the same shelf was a French tome, la Guerre Turque dans la Guerre Mondiale (Paris 1926), by a M.Larcher, which may have more so I brought it home  but French is not the best of my 'other' languages...

[trajan]

On 12/15/2016 at 01:16, shippingsteel said:

.... The 23rd Division was a wartime raised unit that was recruited (ie.conscripted) from the local Syrian & Arab population.

It was made up of the 67th, 68th and 69th regiments. The Division had its Headquarters at Nablus (West Bank) in 1915.

 

While 'Division' sounds like a large unit, it was comparable to a British 'Brigade', and made up of only 2 or 3 regiments.

It would be good to get input here from someone with some knowledge of the Turkish unit operations in Sinai/Palestine.

 

Taken a bit of tracking down, but to fill out the picture, using locally available sources...

 

The 23rd was indeed a wartime formation, in existence (on paper at least!) by 13 November 1914. Volunteers from the 23rd took part as a flanking unit in the attack on the Canal in January 1915, taking the El-Arich-Kantara route (8th Corps records 19-01.1330 = 02.02.1915).  It looks like they were then sent off in March 1915 to Thrace as a back-up for the Gallipoli campaign, but returned to the east in early 1916.

 

SS, you any further on translating those two pages?

 

Trajan

[trajan]

On 12/9/2016 at 23:34, Robert Rytir said:

2nd Regiment -------- Alay

 

3rd Battalion  -------- Tabur

 

10th company ------  Boluk

 

456 -------------------- 456

 

On 12/10/2016 at 03:37, Slamsector said:

... The 2nd regiment (of infantry) was in the 1st Ottoman Intantry Division in ww1, and was at several major battles from what I understand.

 

On 12/13/2016 at 08:17, shippingsteel said:

 

...His military unit is still unclear to me (in shorthand)  But I am beginning to think that the identity tag may be right.?

His service number is reported as 45, and identity tag reads as 456, so perhaps they made a mistake somewhere.?

 

 

 

Always useful to look back at old posts and to see what's what... And if the tag is for somebody from the 2nd regiment, of the 1st Ottoman Division, as Robert and Slamsector above, then we have a problem in seeing the tag and the book as being connected, and so perhaps no mistake in the soldier's number as in the 'book' - it is 460. As SS pointed out earlier, the book-man Ibrahim is with the 23rd division, and the two regiments with that were - as I understand it - the 68th and the 69th.... 

 

SS, maybe a re-check on that 23rd division attribution? One source I have suggests it was in reserve at Adana from June 1916 onwards.