Help need in Turkish translation of ID tag & pay book

[Robert Rytir]

Hello 

these items were brought back by a chap in the ALH from Egypt as souvenirs.Can any one read and tell me what the tag say's and is plus also the book?? Does it contain a soldiers name?

 

Cheers Rob  

Also the tag mentioned .

 

Thanks 

[bob lembke]

Bob;

 

Very interesting. A few observations. 

 

Are you sure that the attribution given is correct? I mention this as it is now extremely difficult to get Ottoman Turkish translated,

and it would be a shame to go thru a lot of trouble and possibly expense to find out that it is something utterly different, like a long laundry list. But it does look like it might be a pay book. There is a fascinating source, originally written in Ottoman Turkish, from memory it is called something like "Lone Pine Diary", the diary of a Turkish infantry officer at Gallipoli, and when a Turk living in Istanbul came into possession of the manuscript diary it took him several months to find someone to translate it into English. And this is a Turk living in Istanbul! So you sitting in Australia and me sitting in Philadelphia are going to have trouble getting that document translated. 

 

Over the last say 1000 years Turkish has been written in something like ten alphabets, and Ottoman Turkish unfortunately used the Arabic alphabet, which was a really bad choice for writing Turkish in, as Turkish is a much "bigger" language than Arabic. My wife, who (you may not believe this) works at a university working in a total of 80 languages, she estimates (she does not "have" 80 languages; she "has" about 12 modern European languages, and 3-4 ancient European languages, but has certain amounts of written skills in dozens of other languages, she has done this for about 28 years). She looked at Modern Turkish for two days, and decided that it might be the most difficult major language on earth, and I agree. (She went on to Arabic, and soon dropped that.) And, even aside from the question of the Arabic alphabet, Modern Turkish, written roughly in the "English alphabet", is much simpler than Ottoman Turkish was. An educated Turk, writing in Ottoman Turkish, would jam as much Arabic and Persian into it as he could, partially to show off his cultural skills. Kemal Attuerk, when he reformed Turkish, simplified Turkish, partially by getting almost all of the Arabic and Farsi out of it. And there was a sharp break, in Turkey for many years, Ottoman Turkish was not studied, was not taught at universities, so now there is a real shortage of people who have good skills in Ottoman Turkish. I have a German e-friend, he has lived and worked in Turkey for a number of years, and he has good Modern Turkish; he has a Turkish wife, and I understand that his father-in-law has some Ottoman Turkish skills. But I think it is rare, or at least unusual.

 

Incidentally, there are eight Turkic languages, and that book possibly could be written in one of the others, but I doubt it. There are about 230 million Turkic people in the Middle East.

 

I am not an expert here, but knowledgeable, and I believe that the above information is roughly or mostly correct.

 

The German Army advised the Turkish Army from about 1835 on, and the Paybook (in German Soldbuch, or "Salt Book", a reference to the soldiers being partially paid in salt in the Roman Army) was a big deal in the German Army, every soldier carried one. So it is not surprising if the Turkish Army adopted the same document. It carried some other information, for example, his vaccinations. He also had a "Shooting Book" (if Infantry), and there was a "Military Passport", but he did not have that, the Army kept it, and it had detailed information of many kinds about his military career. He got it when he left the Army. I have my father;s. He served in both the German and the Turkish Armies in the Great War.

 

I think that you are assuming that the metal object in the fifth picture is the Turkish soldier's "dog tag", but I doubt it, unless there is stamped information on the other side. The tag is cast, not stamped on a metal disk, and so it is suitable for being made by the hundreds, or thousands, not a single or two copies. It may be a religous tag, a sort of talisman. Turkish soldiers in the Great War often did not have shoes, often did not have a uniform, or a rifle, or some old crazy rifle, maybe food, maybe not, so I am not sure that they had dog tags. They might have, I don't know. The Turkish Army was a mess after the Balkan Wars and lacked many things. Except bravery. My father felt that they were the bravest soldiers he ever met, and he fought in some of the very best German storm units.

 

As to name, the scrap of paper to the right in the fourth picture contains the word "Ibrahim", a first name in Turkish or Arabic that (I think) means Abraham, who not only was a Jewish and Christian prophet, but one of the five main prophets of al-Islam. (They are Moses, Abraham, John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, and the Prophet Mohammed. PBUH. (I have seen the supposed head of John the Baptist in the Treasury Room of the Topkapi Palace in Istanbul, but I think there are two other heads of that prophet/saint elsewhere, so who knows.) 

 

So now you know more than you ever wished.

 

Bob Lembke 

 

    

 

 

[MaureenE]

Perhaps you could try the History Department at Macquarie University, Sydney

http://www.mq.edu.au/about_us/faculties_and_departments/faculty_of_arts/mhpir/research/research_by_staff/gallipoli_centenary_research_project/

 

Although perhaps I should add that quite some time ago I wrote about a Gallipoli related matter and I did not get a reply.

 

Cheers

Maureen

[michaeldr]

Taken together, the two English slips of paper seem to indicate that the prisoner was captured at Bir Lahfan (between el Arish and Magdhaba) on 14^th December 1916 – see the map here https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/MapSinaiWWI.jpg

The 2^nd ALH Regiment were patrolling in this area at that time - www.awm.gov.au/images/collection/bundled/RCDIG1013646.pdf

Good Luck with the Ottoman script

Edited 5 December , 2016 by michaeldr

[Robert Rytir]

Thanks to all of you for your help and Bob thanks for depressing me regarding getting it read ( just joking mate)

 

Cheers Rob 

[michaeldr]

Rob,

It may be worthwhile dropping a PM to our fellow member ShippingSteel - see http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?/profile/52604-shippingsteel/ to draw his attention to this;

he has some experience with Ottoman script on weapons etc

[shippingsteel]

This is indeed a Turkish soldiers identity tag and 'paybook'. (I guess equivalent to a German soldiers "Soldbuch")

The tag is an early pattern, far better made than some of the very rudimentary wartime designs seen later on.

It describes the soldiers Regiment, Battalion, Company and individual Number. They may not belong together.?

The 'paybook' shows pages of itemised regulations, soldiers personal details, and space for service records, etc.

 

Cheers, SS

[Robert Rytir]

Thanks for the info but are you able to get a name or unit from what I sent you?

 

Cheers 

[Robert Rytir]

Again I thank you very much for doing what you have so far.The pages I emailed you directly are they easier for you to translate ?

 

Rob

[Robert Rytir]

On 09/12/2016 at 10:14, Slamsector said:

I think you may have mistaken me for someone else Rob, I have never been emailed scans

Apologies  to you Slamsector you are correct I sent them to  ShippingSteel  , if you like I can send them to you also.

 

Thanks again mate 

[bob lembke]

Something just came to me. "Slamsector" identifies a lot of the writing as Arabic, the rest as Ottoman Turkish (two very different languages, despite using the same Arabic alphabet). I must mention that when writing Ottoman Turkish a cultured person would jam a lot of Arabic and Farsi (Persian) into his text, to show off his literacy. But the basic Ottoman Turkish used a lot of Arabic borrow-words, I believe.

 

But  Slamsector indicates blocks of Arabic, not just the odd word or phrase. Also, the name Khalil Ibrahim is not Turkish, it is Arabic. So this all adds up, Ibrahim must have been an Arab soldier in an Arab Turkish regiment. As literacy in Ottoman Turkish in the Turkish Empire has been estimated as 3-5%, and it might be lower in Arab regiments, it is not surprising if mostly Arabic was used in Arab regiments, whose literacy in Arabic would have been much higher.

 

I'm not an expert here, I have a tiny bit of spoken Arabic, in different dialects, and a miniscule bit of spoken Modern Turkish, but don't know a speck of the Arabic alphabet, so I am flying here "on a wing and a prayer". (Oddly enough, my wife has the Arabic alphabet, but not a word of the language. Don't ask.) But I think that the guess that he was in an Arab regiment is very likely. Maybe someone can make out a regimental number, and my guess could be corroborated.

 

And, of course, the fact that much of the document is in Arabic will make it much easier to get at least some of it translated, and possibly an Arabic translator could transliterate the Ottoman Turkish into the English alphabet, so a Turkish speaker could perhaps roughly translate the rest. 

[Robert Rytir]

Bob thanks for your input,I have just noticed some thing if you look at the first scan I posted the torn in half paper dos say Arab Soldier. I thought that may have bee just a general term used by some of the allied soldiers to describe the enemy they captured. So it's slowly coming together , and again I say a big thanks to all guys for your investigative work.

Also this is what I have on the ID tag so can something be found out about who served in this unit??

 

2nd Regiment -------- Alay

3rd Battalion  -------- Tabur

10th company ------  Boluk

456 -------------------- 456

Cheers  

Edited 9 December , 2016 by Robert Rytir

[shippingsteel]

From what I have been able to work out so far, the providence on this 'paybook' seems to check out nicely. 

It belonged to a member of the Ottoman VIII Corps which was located in Syria/Palestine throughout the war.

 

The soldiers name was indeed Ibrāhīm, son of Dīn, and from the village of Deir al-Sawda in southern Syria.

Back then this village was located in the Ottoman Sanjak of Jerusalem - just outside of today's "West-Bank".

I haven't got a lower level unit for him as of yet, but he was classed as a Foot-Soldier so just basic Infantry.

 

Cheers, SS

[Robert Rytir]

Thanks for the update looking forward to your further results.

 

Thanks Rob

[trajan]

On 12/11/2016 at 12:29, shippingsteel said:

From what I have been able to work out so far, the providence on this 'paybook' seems to check out nicely.

 

On 12/11/2016 at 13:57, Robert Rytir said:

Thanks for the update looking forward to your further results.

 

Yes, excellent provenance and a good bit of following up there Capt' SS! I share with Rob the anticipation of more on this!

[shippingsteel]

On 12/11/2016 at 19:29, shippingsteel said:

The soldiers name was indeed Ibrāhīm, son of Dīn, and from the village of Deir al-Sawda in southern Syria.

Back then this village was located in the Ottoman Sanjak of Jerusalem - just outside of today's "West-Bank".

I haven't got a lower level unit for him as of yet, but he was classed as a Foot-Soldier so just basic Infantry.

 

I have been continuing to work on clarifying some more of this information from Rob's "little book". It ain't easy.!!

Firstly I can now confirm a name for this soldiers book. It is written on one of the title pages and reads as Juzdān 

This translates from period Ottoman as, a portfolio or pocket-book. So that's what they called it & it makes sense. 

 

Basically it's a pre-printed document which lists a whole lot of regulations which would be a full project to decipher.

It has space for military service records but these are all blank. The main attestation page has all the written detail.

It's these personal details that I have been translating. One of the pages is virtually a full blown census document.

 

So it lists everything on exactly where he came from, what he did, how he lived, his age, marital status, children etc.

Basically he was a 20 year-old farmer from the village of Deir as-Sudan (correction) near Jerusalem ("West-Bank")

These details are as at when he enlisted in the army in 1915. His rank is not noted, he's just down as Foot-Soldier.

His military unit is still unclear to me (in shorthand)  But I am beginning to think that the identity tag may be right.?

His service number is reported as 45, and identity tag reads as 456, so perhaps they made a mistake somewhere.?

 

Cheers, SS

Edited 13 December , 2016 by shippingsteel

[Robert Rytir]

Well SS,

it looks like I owe you a few beers mate, its interesting what you have found so far and again looking forward to what you still might find. Are you able to tell me which pages relate to the info you have give up till now?? As I said in my email to you we should start a thread on what Turkish souvenirs are out there that may have been picked up by diggers.

 

 

 

Thanks Rob

[shippingsteel]

These are the pages from near the front of the book, where all the action is. The information has been written in by hand.

Page 8 on the right is what I am calling the 'attestation page' and Page 9 on the left is what I am calling the 'census page'.

 

Edited 13 December , 2016 by shippingsteel

[Robert Rytir]

Thank you for the explanation on where you got the info .

[shippingsteel]

Well after a long process of guesswork, research and elimination I am finally going to give his unit as the 23rd Division.

The problem is that the handwriting eventually becomes more of a scribble after the clerk has done hundreds in a day.!

 

He is definitely part of VIII Corps which was based in Syria/Palestine throughout the war. It comprised of a few Divisions.

Around 1915 they were the 8th, 10th, 23rd, 25th and 27th Divisions. From the writing (& elimination) it must be the 23rd.

 

The 23rd Division was a wartime raised unit that was recruited (ie.conscripted) from the local Syrian & Arab population.

It was made up of the 67th, 68th and 69th regiments. The Division had its Headquarters at Nablus (West Bank) in 1915.

 

While 'Division' sounds like a large unit, it was comparable to a British 'Brigade', and made up of only 2 or 3 regiments.

It would be good to get input here from someone with some knowledge of the Turkish unit operations in Sinai/Palestine.

 

  

 

Edited 14 December , 2016 by shippingsteel

[Robert Rytir]

Thanks again for your time and effort .

[trajan]

I think this division was based / recruited at Homs, but I will ask around when I get a chance. The word Juzdān is one of the few Arabic words that are used directly in Osmanli, meaning - as SS - a wallet book.

 

SS, how are your Osmanli studies going along? Look to be good!

[shippingsteel]

 

On 12/15/2016 at 08:16, shippingsteel said:

The 23rd Division was a wartime raised unit that was recruited (ie.conscripted) from the local Syrian & Arab population.

It was made up of the 67th, 68th and 69th regiments. The Division had its Headquarters at Nablus (West Bank) in 1915.

 

On 10/14/2014 at 08:53, stevebecker said:

23rd (Arab) Division (raised in Palestine)

1-3/67th Regt- 67th MGCo

1-3/68th Regt

1-3/69th Regt - 69th MG Co

 

Found a little more supporting information from forum member Steve Becker, in THIS THREAD HERE and as quoted above.

Steve is quite an authority on the battles that took place in the Sinai and Palestine between the Light Horse and the Turkish.

 

From what he states the 23rd Division was made up of the 3 Regiments shown, and each comprising of 3 Infantry Battalions.

I am still working on tracking the movements of these regiments during 1916 but the Ottoman records are incredibly sparse.

 

Cheers, SS 

Edited 18 December , 2016 by shippingsteel

[trajan]

8 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

... From what he states the 23rd Division was made up of the 3 Regiments shown, and each comprising of 3 Infantry Battalions.

I am still working on tracking the movements of these regiments during 1916 but the Ottoman records are incredibly sparse.

 

Good on you Capt' Kirk! And yes, Ottoman records are sparse... Well, only in translation, actually, as my colleagues here use what is in Istanbul in the National Archive quite frequently... I don't know your age or work status, SS, but you could always come over here and do a course in my university in Osmanli studies and complete a Ph.D. on the Ottoman Army if you wish to do so - perhaps even with that WW1 expert Norman Stone as your supervisor! But, by the way, any comments on the Homs origin for that Division? I can check over here - not a big problem as, well, we do have a History department ... And I can even get the 'attestation page' checked again for you if you'd like! Anything to further studies in this arcane field!

 

Best wishes,

 

Julian

[shippingsteel]

Had a chance to look at one of the other pages and translate the heading. I have a feeling that this will be ongoing. 

The thing is for every 1 piece that you work out you always learn 10x that much simply from doing all the research.

 

This kind of document makes for fascinating study and helps to put a 'human face' on the realities of the other side.

One of my great-uncles was one of those traipsing around the desert with the Light Horse so it is quite interesting.

 

Anyway the heading indicates this book did serve a dual purpose as a "paybook". But no entries have been made.

And this poor chap had been serving with the Ottoman army for more than a year.! Though this is hardly surprising.

 

Reports tell that Arab conscripts were poorly treated. Usually they were more than happy to 'come across' to the ALH.

The heading translates something like "For performing service with military, this payment packet is your recompense".

 

Cheers, SS