Identification of uniform and bages please. Soldier 2

[Elaine.01944]

If any member of the Forum is able to help in the identification of uniform and badges on the photographs of WW1 soldiers that would be very helpful and much appreciated. This is my Great Uncle Arthur Doran who did survive the war.

[WilliamRev]

I'm no expert, but it looks to me rather like the Worcestershire Regiment. In any case, I have done my best to get reasonable close-ups of the cap and shoulder badges, and hopefully others will express an opinion.

 

William

 

Edit: The shoulder title doesn't look like Worcester Regiment at all, so possibly ignore my suggestion!

 

Edited 14 November , 2016 by WilliamRev

[SteveE]

Cap Badge looks very much like the Cheshire Regiment to me as it appears to have the acorn in the centre.

 

Steve

Edited 14 November , 2016 by SteveE

[Steven Broomfield]

And the shoulder title doesn't look like the Worcesters' either - seems to start with a 'C'/

 

Cheshire for me, too.

[Dragoon]

Well done Jrmh. But here's a PIC of the badge anyway, Chris.                                     

[Elaine.01944]

Thank you to everyone that replied.  The Cheshires makes sense.  He lived on the Lancs/Ches border.  Now I have to find his records if I can.  He was injured whilst serving but survived.  Would there be a particular place to start? 

[WilliamRev]

A good place to start is on the Long Long Trail website HERE, Also, if you could give us his full name and any details that you have on him, I'm sure that people will be able to help.

 

William

[Elaine.01944]

Hi William - hit a biggish snag already!  This photo is thought to be Arthur Doran born 1897 in Hyde, Cheshire and died 1973.  However, this soldier is identified as Cheshire Regiment but looking on Ancestry I have found Uncle Arthurs medal card which says he was in the Army Service Corp.  T/364136.  I have not found any other info on Ancestry.

Elaine

[johnboy]

Are there other details , such as an address shown on the Medal Index Card to positively id him as ASC.?

[roughdiamond]

No address or any other detail on the MIC that would confirm him as the man quoted, what makes you certain it's the correct one?

 

If it is his MIC then the photo could still be him, it appears to be a "passing out" photo taken in the UK, a MIC only lists the Regts\Corps a man served with after entering a Theatre of War (ToW), if he was transfered to the ASC prior to arriving in a ToW then Cheshire Regt would not show on his MIC, it would however appear on a Service or Pension Record, men were regularly transferred after training if they had a skill or another Regt was badly in need of replacements.

 

There's also a possibility he didn't serve in a ToW, in that case he wouldn't have a MIC.

 

Did he Marry or have Children prior to 1920? A Marriage or Birth cert may give his Regt. There's also the "Absent Voters List" from 1919 which may give his Regt.

 

Sam

Edited 14 November , 2016 by roughdiamond

[Elaine.01944]

Thank you.  I made the assumption that the medal card was his and realise this could be jumping the gun.  I am confident the photo is Arthur.  I have a couple of other photos of him though not at this age, which I am basing my confidence on.

 

Arthur was injured though I do not have details.  He did not marry and did not have children.  I will go back to AVL and check again but was informed that many of the documents for Hyde were missing.  I have been attempting to attach another photo but it won't let me even as a compressed/zip file??

Elaine

[johnboy]

The cap in the photo might have been the photographers prop.

You need to find something showing dob address, parents names etc, on a service record,

How sure are you that he was wounded? Was it bad enough to be sent to hospital or have him discharged?

[BillyH]

1 hour ago, johnboy said:

The cap in the photo might have been the photographers prop.

 

I can't imagine that a soldier would allow himself to be photographed with the wrong cap badge.

It's a Cheshires badge. There was an Arthur Percy Doran in the Cheshires, but he died of wounds in 1918.

Elaine, how sure are you that he died in 1973.

 

BillyH.

Edited 14 November , 2016 by BillyH

[johnboy]

I think that it has been mentioned on here before,

Edited 14 November , 2016 by johnboy

[RaySearching]

1 hour ago, johnboy said:

The cap in the photo might have been the photographers prop.

 

30 minutes ago, BillyH said:

 

I can't imagine that a soldier would allow himself to be photographed with the wrong cap badge.

It's a Cheshires badge. There was an Arthur Percy Doran in the Cheshires, but he died of wounds in 1918.

Elaine, how sure are you that he died in 1973.

 

BillyH.

 

Johnboy is correct  not unusual at all quite possible to have been a prop 

There have been numerous photos seen which have been taken in photographers studio which don't match the unit the sitter served in 

most have the studios had spare uniforms and caps they often used as props 

 

I have a couple of them in my collection

 

there have been several threads on the forum about this practice

 

regards Ray

 

[Muerrisch]

Prop? No. I don't think so.

 

No soldier would willingly turn up at a photographers without his headdress. It was, apart from anything else, mandatory to wear it out of doors.

The shoulder title certainly looks like Cheshire to my eye.

 

One other point. He is NOT wearing the economy jacket, in fact his SD shows signs of tailoring [the collar] and is pristine. This suggests to me either pre-war, early war, or late war.

[Elaine.01944]

Hello again.  Arthur died in 1973.  I grew up with him in my life.  He was a special.  A lovely man.

 

I understand that his injuries were such that he was in hospital for some time.  It seems I cannot attach another photograph compact or zipped or any other way, as the file is too big.

[johnboy]

The only thing I could find on FMP. I expect that you have already seen it.

 

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription

2 Woodend Lane Hyde, Hyde, Cheshire, England

Learn more

Print transcription View image

Household Members

First name(s)	Last name	Relationship	Marital status	Sex	Occupation	Age	Birth year	Birth place
Henry	Doran	Head	Married	Male	Stripper And Grinder Cotton Mill	35	1876	Cheshire Hyde	Transcription
Florence	Doran	Wife	Married	Female	Calico Weaver Cotton Mill	33	1878	Cheshire Hyde	Transcription
Nellie	Doran	Daughter	-	Female	Can Tenter Cotton Mill	14	1897	Cheshire Hyde	Transcription
Arthur	Doran	Son	-	Male	Weaver Cotton Mill	13	1898	Cheshire Hyde	Transcription
May	Doran	Daughter	-	Female	-	5	1906	-

[Elaine.01944]

Yes I have this. Thanks.  Its his war record I would like to know more about.

[johnboy]

Without knowing forsure which regiment he was in will be difficult if his service record doe not exist. Did he have another initial ?

[Ron Abbott]

The free England BMD website has an Arthur Doran born in the 3rd quarter of 1897 in Stockport.

 

No other Arthur Doran recorded for 1897, and the closest year for a birth in Cheshire with that same name would have been in 1895 in Chester to a man called Arthur Piercy Doran.

 

However the website has an Arthur Doran dying in the 4th quarter of 1973 and this time there is a POB recorded for that man, as Hyde with specific DOB as 12th Aug 1897.

 

Presumably him?  Unfortunately no middle name or initial recorded.

 

Going through the service/pension records that have survived for men called Arthur Doran, I don't see any that were born in Cheshire or even close.

 

Looking at the medal rolls and discounting the obvious, e.g. Black Watch, South Irish Horse and the Royal Irish Rifles, there were several men of that same name in the Royal Engineers, Labour Corps, London Regt, Army Service Corps, Middlesex Regt, etc.

 

The only one listed for the Cheshire Regiment is the aforementioned man who did not survive the war.

 

However if you narrow the list down to those without a middle name....it's not that long a list to get through.  But without some further information, I don't know how that will really help.

 

 

 

[Muerrisch]

9 hours ago, johnboy said:

Without knowing forsure which regiment he was in will be difficult if his service record doe not exist. Did he have another initial ?

 

I think you are in a minority of one regarding the photo, which is surely Cheshire? Whether its the right man or not .....?

[BillyH]

The photo is definitely Cheshires but there is always the possibility, given his age, that he joined up in 1915/16 and trained with the Cheshires only to be sent to France with another regiment.This happened very frequently.

Elaine. This could be solved pretty easily if you knew where his medals are, have you checked with other family members?

(his name, number & regiment will be on the rim.)

 

BillyH.

[roughdiamond]

12 hours ago, Elaine.01944 said:

I understand that his injuries were such that he was in hospital for some time. 

 

If he was discharged due to wounds I'd expect to see a Silver War Badge (SWB) entry for him, only 2 of the Arthur Dorans have one. 

527988 A\Cpl Arthur Doran RAMC enlisted 09\09\15 discharged 21\02\19.

This is however a SWB card and he seems to have no Medal Card so probably only served at home, also his unit is listed as 1st London Sanitary Coy so that wouldn't match your man.

 

The other is 2004 later 686033 Gnr Arthur Doran RFA

Entered France 01\10\15, discharged 01\02\18. SWB list RA/1397.

 

I wouldn't read too much into it though as men could spend long periods in Hospital and still return to duty.

 

Best bet would be to ask around the family to see if anyone has his medals.

 

Sam

 

Edited 15 November , 2016 by roughdiamond

[Elaine.01944]

Thank you to everyone who has responded.  I truly had no idea of how hard it would be to research my soldiers of WW1.  I was naïve.  The worst part is understanding that the hardship and suffering of so many, many, men is relatively unmarked.  I will be coming back to the Forum soon to ask for help on some of my other WW1 family members but for now will do some work with the information you have given me thus far.

Elaine