roel22 Posted 16 May , 2016 Share Posted 16 May , 2016 A Dutch woman recently bought several old postcards at a fancy fair, including this one. She'd like to learn more about the people in the picture, or the soldier this card was sent to (William Bruce, a British POW in The Hague). If possible she'd like te get the card back to his descendants. Can someone help her out? Roel ...and the photo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 16 May , 2016 Share Posted 16 May , 2016 The sender's address is in Aberdeen (perhaps his sister) On ICRC records there is a William Bruce, seaman, Civil, born 26.8.1882 Aberdeen, internened at Rubelen Camp near Berlin . Wonder if there is a connection? Unfortunately if it is Scottish Records I'm not a subscriber to Scotlands People. Charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 16 May , 2016 Author Share Posted 16 May , 2016 An article about the postcard in a Scottish newspaper... Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 19 May , 2016 Author Share Posted 19 May , 2016 On ICRC records there is a William Bruce, seaman, Civil, born 26.8.1882 Aberdeen, internened at Rubelen Camp near Berlin . Wonder if there is a connection? Unfortunately if it is Scottish Records I'm not a subscriber to Scotlands People. You may be right. Reading the postcard, does it say "212 British mil POW" or "212 British civil POW?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Atkins Posted 19 May , 2016 Share Posted 19 May , 2016 "Civil", I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 19 May , 2016 Author Share Posted 19 May , 2016 Thanks, that's what I thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 20 May , 2016 Share Posted 20 May , 2016 Yes I read it as Civil which is why I didn't look for Military including Wounded Exchanges who I believe were kept in Holland. Might the address in Holland be incorrect hence perhaps it never reached him ? Miss Sophia Bruce is presumably a Nurse or VAD. I had a look at the BRC VAD site but didn't see any with Aberdeen as address. But I could have missed it! I also looked at the Army nursing records but didn't spot anything. A nurse Annie Sophia Bruce didn't obviously fit. I suspect the publicity in the local paper should bring some response given there is an address. Do let us know. Charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonmate Posted 20 May , 2016 Share Posted 20 May , 2016 Obviously some military patients in among the throng. There were 5 military hospitals in Aberdeen according to the LLT. Sounds like a merchant sailor to me. Charlie 962 could be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 20 May , 2016 Author Share Posted 20 May , 2016 The address is correct: mrs. Luitink lived there. Mrs. Luitink was involved in charity (found a small newspaper article about it from the 30's), so someone who would offer a room to someone needing a place to stay. I also think Charlie 962 is correct. William Bruce's name is also on this list: he was a sailor, had been a POW in camp Ruhleben and was released to Holland in march 1918. The address in Aberdeen is different, but then again William and Sophia may have been brother and sister not living on the same address. Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 20 May , 2016 Share Posted 20 May , 2016 Roel That is a very interesting link you have posted. What we need to see is the 1911 and 1901 Census for these 2 addresses. Charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 20 May , 2016 Share Posted 20 May , 2016 How about this 1891 Census on FMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 20 May , 2016 Share Posted 20 May , 2016 and this merchant seaman record plus photo of William Petrie Bruce of 240 King Street Aberdeen !! Charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 20 May , 2016 Share Posted 20 May , 2016 I cant resist posting it. thanks to Findmypast; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 20 May , 2016 Share Posted 20 May , 2016 perhaps this is the 1901 Census for Sophia and her mother and grandmother Petrie on FMP here The Grandparent Petrie would fit with William P under Scottish naming customs. William not present. But Sophia 2 years older and daughter Jemima aged 11 was not on 1891 Census ? Needs checking. I'm limited on access to Scottish records Charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonmate Posted 20 May , 2016 Share Posted 20 May , 2016 Interesting link to the Official Numbers shown next to the photo of William at Post #13. 11819 relates to s.s. RUBISLAW owned by Granite City Steamship Company, Aberdeen. Built 1905 by Hall Russell & Co. A file at Kew in the Inland Revenue series IR40/3103 is a case about Granite City in a tax enquiry about reparations being made by Germany towards the refit of a Granite City vessel (RUBISLAW ?) after it had been detained and later released. Could this have been William's ship, which he returned to after his and it's release ? This same ship struck a mine on 28 Nov 1939 and sank with the loss of 13 crew ! It is unfortunate that any earlier,pre-1918,seaman's CR10 card for William is no longer available, where we could see if he was on this ship then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 20 May , 2016 Author Share Posted 20 May , 2016 Bingo: his merchant seaman record proves this is the William Bruce I was looking for! Many thanks to everybody! Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 20 May , 2016 Author Share Posted 20 May , 2016 ...and a special thanks to Charlie962! Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 21 May , 2016 Share Posted 21 May , 2016 now you need to see if there were any children to William and Margaret Bruce... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 21 May , 2016 Author Share Posted 21 May , 2016 ...the search continues... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonmate Posted 25 May , 2016 Share Posted 25 May , 2016 Read the file IR40/3103 at Kew yesterday. It is all about the RUBISLAW ( the shipping Company Granite's only ship) and it's detention in Hamburg harbour in 1914 whilst in the ordinary course of regular trade between Aberdeen and Hamburg, subsequent use and deterioration whilst in German hands, and the later return to use in 1919 by Granite. Another two files in the Foreign Office series helped to put the situation in focus (FO383/447 and FO383/474) An interesting history lesson which included notes about life in internment and the struggles to get some help to live. No mention of seamen names but correspondence about them and their German and Dutch problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 26 May , 2016 Author Share Posted 26 May , 2016 Can those files be read online? Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 26 May , 2016 Author Share Posted 26 May , 2016 perhaps this is the 1901 Census for Sophia and her mother and grandmother Petrie on FMP here The Grandparent Petrie would fit with William P under Scottish naming customs. William not present. But Sophia 2 years older and daughter Jemima aged 11 was not on 1891 Census ? Needs checking. I'm limited on access to Scottish records William was a sailor on the Rubislaw, a ship based in Hamburg according to Sotonmate's post. According to his POW-documents he was living in Hamburg when he was captured in 1914. Perhaps William already lived there in 1901, and therefore cannot be found in the census? Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnumbellum Posted 26 May , 2016 Share Posted 26 May , 2016 I am puzzled by the heading of the thread describing William Petrie Bruce as a Prisoner of War in the Netherlands, PoWs are defined in international law as armed forces personnel of one belligerent captured by an opposing belligerent. There is no evidence that William Bruce was ever a member of any armed force, let alone at the particular time of the Great War. He appears to have been a British civilian merchant mariner detained in Germany in 1914 by the German authorities at Ruhleben as an enemy alien. At that stage his status in international law was enemy internee. At a later stage he appears to have been deported to the Netherlands, a neutral country, where he found lodgings. So his status changed to foreigner temporarily resident in the Netherlands, and that was his status at the time the postcard was sent. At no time was he a prisoner of war, and it appears that when the postcard was sent he was not even an internee. Terminology is designed to clarify matters; misuse of terminology serves only to confuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 27 May , 2016 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2016 I agree there's no evidence William Bruce was member of an armed force and most likely was a civilian merchant mariner. I used the term POW because the postcard was sent to "Mr. Williams Bruce - 212 British civil. POW"... Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonmate Posted 27 May , 2016 Share Posted 27 May , 2016 Can those files be read online? Roel All three files are not yet digital, so need to be read at Kew. The IR file is a tax battle where the Government want tax where the ship owner wants more allowances due to repairs and loss of income whilst the vessel was in enemy hands. The two FO files are Letter Books containing various correspondence on matters involving British subjects living in Europe, 447 is specific to the Netherlands and 474 a Miscellaneous which includes some material for Switzerland and Netherlands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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