Seaforths or what?h

[Dunc]

As a new member, I wondered what some of you ‘old sweats’ make of the uniforms in this photo.
My grandad, John MacPhee, is fourth from the left in the back row, looking somewhat tense and anxious — as well he might, I suppose.
Aged 34 with a wife and four children, and a fifth on the way, he was called up in 1916, presumably after the Military Service Act was extended to married men in May of that year.
We know he was with the Seaforth Highlanders in Mesopotamia and Palestine — so it must have been the 1st Battalion, the only Seaforth unit to serve in that theatre.
Most of the soldiers in this photo are wearing Seaforth kilts, but three of them are not (including the sergeant in the centre). They are wearing what I took to be Black Watch tartan.
Aaha! I thought. Here is evidence of something I recently read about — due to heavy casualties among the 1st Seaforth and 2nd Black Watch whilst fighting the Turks, the survivors of both units were briefly amalgamated to form a composite ‘Highland Battalion’ between 4th February and 12th July 1916.
The only trouble was, the three ‘Black Watch’ kilties do not appear to be wearing the Black Watch cap badge, which has a distinctly broken outline.
I would guess the sergeant and the chap seated at the end of his row might be wearing the more circular Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders badge (and the Argylls wore virtually the same tartan as the Black Watch, I think). But the badge of the soldier at second left looks neither Seaforth, Black Watch nor Argylls.
And the guy on the extreme left wearing the Seaforth kilt doesn’t look like he’s wearing a Seaforth cap badge — Black Watch, perhaps?
I also read recently that the Black Watch Glengarry did not have a diced band, whilst the Seaforths’ did. There are five soldiers in this photo wearing undiced Glengarries — and all of them bear a Seaforth cap badge.
I had also assumed, because of the puddles on the ground, that the photo was taken in Scotland or somewhere else in the UK, perhaps during basic training. But I have also read that Mesopotamia in 1916 suffered torrential rain and severe flooding.
What am I to make of this confusing photograph? Were there simply not enough complete uniforms to go round?

[bif]

Dunc, The man in back of the fella standing with the "swagger stick looks like he may be wearing a 5/Seaforth cap badge ? Don't know why, but when I scale the photo up the central figure looks like the 5th's standing cat. Bif

[mancpal]

Dunc

I know nothing about uniforms or insignia. The only thing I've noticed is the man on the right is wearing a different style of tunic and is the only one with a lanyard. Apologies if this only adds to the confusion! Can anyone make out what the sign in the window says?

Simon

[Dunc]

Thank you Simon and bif.

I think the sign in the window says: E Coy (lines)

[Ron Abbott]

I think they're all Seaforths, but from different battalions including the 5th.

[4thGordons]

I agree.

I believe they are all Seaforth Highlanders.

The circular badges are as worn by the 1/5th Battalion as indicated - they also often wore glengarries with three rows of red/white dicing as here.

Here is a close up example (midway down 3 men in Bedford)

I believe the 5th Battalion also wore Govt tartan but, if I recall correctly, the kilt was pleated differently to that of the Royal Highlanders.

Picture showing the kilt (and also the glengarries/badges) here also in Bedford

Regarding the Service Dress Jacket - the chap at the end has had the skirts of his tailored for kilt wear. There was no distinct pattern of "Highland" Service Dress Jacket until the 1922 Pattern, jackets were altered at the unit level. This practice was supposed to be discontinued during wartime but clearly the prohibition was not strictly applied as there are plenty of mid war and late war photos of tailored SD Jackets. Sometimes men would fold back the skirt of the jacket to create the effect for photos.

Chris

[o j kirby]

I agree with 4thGordons.

All Seaforths. The 5th Seaforths Glengarry has the same red and white dicing as the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders as they are from the same regimental ancestry as the Sutherland side of that regiment. The cat on their badge ( they did not wear the stag's head common to all other Seaforth battalions ) is also shared with the A&SH cap and collar badges.

Owain

[Dunc]

Many thanks everyone. I never knew the 5th Seaforths wore a completely different uniform.

Do you think I'm right about the date - 1916?

And would this be the UK or the Middle East?

Dunc

[bif]

Dunc, How did you come by the photo ? Is there any info with or on it ? Could be this is a photo of lads from the same town ? Curiously, Bif

[bif]

Dunc, Is it possible the young man with the aiguillettes is a musician? That might also explain the "cutaway" highland style he's going for on his SD jacket. Even more curious now, Bif

[Steven Broomfield]

Intriguing: I, too, never realised the 5th Seaforths wore Argyll distinctions.

You sure do live and learn.

[Dunc]

Bif - I got the photo in digital form from my cousin. Not sure where he got it, but I'll ask him. Probably another family member. I think he would have mentioned if there was any info on the back.

Dunc

[Dunc]

Bif - don't think they were from the same town. Grandad was living in Glasgow at the time, although he came from the Isle of Skye (Cameron Highlanders' recruiting patch). The 5th Seaforth was the territorial battalion for Caithness and Sutherland.

Dunc

[gordon92]

I agree.

I believe they are all Seaforth Highlanders.

The circular badges are as worn by the 1/5th Battalion as indicated - they also often wore glengarries with three rows of red/white dicing as here.

Here is a close up example (midway down 3 men in Bedford)

I believe the 5th Battalion also wore Govt tartan but, if I recall correctly, the kilt was pleated differently to that of the Royal Highlanders.

Picture showing the kilt (and also the glengarries/badges) here also in Bedford

Regarding the Service Dress Jacket - the chap at the end has had the skirts of his tailored for kilt wear. There was no distinct pattern of "Highland" Service Dress Jacket until the 1922 Pattern, jackets were altered at the unit level. This practice was supposed to be discontinued during wartime but clearly the prohibition was not strictly applied as there are plenty of mid war and late war photos of tailored SD Jackets. Sometimes men would fold back the skirt of the jacket to create the effect for photos.

Chris

Chris and others have pegged the regimental and battalion identities correctly....all Seaforth. The 5th Seaforth were originally the Sutherland Rifle Volunteers prior to 1881. In the 1881 reforms, the Seaforth Highlanders took over the Sutherland/Caithness areas as a recruiting domicile, and the Sutherland Rifle Volunteers became a VB (and a Territorial Bn post-1908) of the Seaforth. Hence, the 5th Seaforth retained their Sutherland uniform distinctions...red/white checked glengarry, Sutherland tartan kilts with box pleats (versus knife pleats for the Black Watch), and plain hose flashes with leading edge centered at the midline of the shin (versus the belled flashes worn by all other Seaforth battalions). Further, pre-1914 the 5th Seaforth had a full dress doublet with scarlet facings while the rest of the regiment had buff facings.

A small point to put on the table: The Seaforth Highlanders always referred to themselves in short form as The Seaforth rather than Seaforths as they were sometimes called outwith the Regiment. This can be seen in the shoulders titles of GORDONS and CAMERONS that were changed to that form about 1922 by those two regiments, but SEAFORTH was retained. Interestingly, the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada do refer to themselves as Seaforths.

[bif]

Aside from the above, why are those two sitting in the evil, nasty mud fouling up their now priceless kilties? Not doing the squeezebox any good either . At least it appears to be good

Scots or English mud. Bif

[mancpal]

Anyone remember Wilson,Keppel and Betty? Thought I'd seen the Sgt before.

[seaforths]

Chris and others have pegged the regimental and battalion identities correctly....all Seaforth. The 5th Seaforth were originally the Sutherland Rifle Volunteers prior to 1881. In the 1881 reforms, the Seaforth Highlanders took over the Sutherland/Caithness areas as a recruiting domicile, and the Sutherland Rifle Volunteers became a VB (and a Territorial Bn post-1908) of the Seaforth. Hence, the 5th Seaforth retained their Sutherland uniform distinctions...red/white checked glengarry, Sutherland tartan kilts with box pleats (versus knife pleats for the Black Watch), and plain hose flashes with leading edge centered at the midline of the shin (versus the belled flashes worn by all other Seaforth battalions). Further, pre-1914 the 5th Seaforth had a full dress doublet with scarlet facings while the rest of the regiment had buff facings.

A small point to put on the table: The Seaforth Highlanders always referred to themselves in short form as The Seaforth rather than Seaforths as they were sometimes called outwith the Regiment. This can be seen in the shoulders titles of GORDONS and CAMERONS that were changed to that form about 1922 by those two regiments, but SEAFORTH was retained. Interestingly, the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada do refer to themselves as Seaforths.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the location that would have brought all these together in training would be Ripon, November 1916 onwards when the 3/4th, 3/5th and 3/6th Seaforth Bns. combined to become 4th Reserve Training Battalion? Quite possible that because of casualties to 1st Seaforth, men were diverted from Territorial to that Bn. as I understand it, they had to complete a training course at Cromarty for service in Mespot.

[bif]

Dunc, If I understand correctly granddad is the tallest fella standing ? Do you have his service number? Have you looked up his MIC or for any service papers? Does anyone in the family still hold his medals? Bif

[trajan]

Looking at this photograph again, as one does, and being totally ignorant on the matter, while most of these chappies seem to have crescent 'labels' on their epaulettes, at least one and possibly two chaps, seem to have something different, e.g., the morose young chappie seated at the right end and the moustachioed man on his right. Or is this a figment of my imagination?

Trajan

[bif]

Trajan, 4th Seaforth had the regular crescent shoulder title with the addition of a " T " over a " 4 " in the center. Could be that's what it looks like we're seeing ? Bif

[bif]

If I did it correctly, here's an example.

ALRIGHT ! How's that for a

first attachment. Thank you

Neil Mackenzie (who else for

a Seaforth question) for the

directions.

Edited 29 April , 2016 by bif

[bif]

Anyone remember Wilson,Keppel and Betty? Thought I'd seen the Sgt before.

MancPal, looked them up on Wikipedia. there are videos. they look like granddads to the Bangles ?

[gordon92]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the location that would have brought all these together in training would be Ripon, November 1916 onwards when the 3/4th, 3/5th and 3/6th Seaforth Bns. combined to become 4th Reserve Training Battalion? Quite possible that because of casualties to 1st Seaforth, men were diverted from Territorial to that Bn. as I understand it, they had to complete a training course at Cromarty for service in Mespot.

Marjorie,

That the site of the photo is Ripon seems as plausible a theory as any. Maybe someone will be along who recognizes the building in the background.

Mike

[4thGordons]

Who is the photographer? (identified lower left) this may help with location

Chris

[trajan]

If I did it correctly, here's an example.TFtitle.jpg ...

Thanks Bif! As I said, I know nowt on these things (well, now I know a bit more!), so always grateful to get a proper answer to what might seem a naive question! If a Territorial, no wonder that young chap looks a bit on the pi**ed- off side... Oh, and congrats. on your first attachment!