Medaler Posted 7 February , 2016 Share Posted 7 February , 2016 Hi, I am trying to find out if anyone has any accounts of the sinking of this vessel and details of the 2 casualties. I have the KTB of the U-Boat (U-49) but that is all. Having searched CWGC I have been unable to find any entries for the "King David" and have not been able to establish the identities of the 2 who were killed. I suspect that the Master may have been one of them, but I have not even been able to find out with any certainty who he was. If he was one of them, I would dearly love to find out if there are any details regarding how he died. I have evidence that he got clear of the ship and did not go down with her. I am posting this here in the hope that somebody may have gone over this ground before me. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. Warmest regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 7 February , 2016 Share Posted 7 February , 2016 There are quite a few files on several "King David"s held in the Discovery catalogue at TNA, although in some cases the files themselves are at the National Maritime Museum. This is the search result, though you will have to filter out several sailors named "King, David" ... http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_p=1900&_q=%22King+David%22+BT sJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 7 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2016 There are quite a few files on several "King David"s held in the Discovery catalogue at TNA, although in some cases the files themselves are at the National Maritime Museum. This is the search result, though you will have to filter out several sailors named "King, David" ... Many thanks Jane. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wightspirit Posted 7 February , 2016 Share Posted 7 February , 2016 The crew agreement for King David for 1917 is held at TNA under reference BT99/3308. You could then try ADM137/1394 (German submarines, mid Atlantic, 1917) which may give survivors accounts of what happened. I'm not sure if the location of the sinking could be classed as 'South West Approaches,' but if it does, further searches of TNA will find the answer. Dave W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Munson Posted 7 February , 2016 Share Posted 7 February , 2016 All I can find is this hard to read record in a BT334 Register: King David 10.07.1917 [O.N. 106510] Surnames Richardson and Bradbier ? Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 7 February , 2016 Share Posted 7 February , 2016 Terry a slight correction Bradbier Richardson (only one man) listed as having perished in 1917 aboard the King David on deaths at sea regards Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloden Posted 7 February , 2016 Share Posted 7 February , 2016 "British Vessels Lost at Sea 1914-1918", HMSO 1919, lists King David as captured on 10.07.1917 by submarine. How sunk = gunfire. Lives lost = 2, but does not list Master as being killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Munson Posted 7 February , 2016 Share Posted 7 February , 2016 Terry a slight correction Bradbier Richardson (only one man) listed as having perished in 1917 aboard the King David on deaths at sea regards Ray Ray I read it as two names as the rest of the entries on the page only give surnames. Regards Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 7 February , 2016 Share Posted 7 February , 2016 Terry sorry just checked you may be right (I took the details from the transcribed index) Details of sinking here regards Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 7 February , 2016 Share Posted 7 February , 2016 David L Jenkins. July 1st 1917. Certificate lost in the S.S.King David, sunk by shellfire from enemy submarine. http://www.llanon.org.uk/joyceweb/WWI/ww1commemoration.htm N.B. Date - 1st. July. But I've searched Geoff's - http://www.hut-six.co.uk/cgi-bin/search1421.php & CWGC & not found Jenkins or other man. Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 7 February , 2016 Share Posted 7 February , 2016 Looks like we may have a couple of non commemorations here all we need to do is positively identify them Although i don't know what the position would be if any of the two are found to be foreign merchant navy nationals Regards Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 7 February , 2016 Share Posted 7 February , 2016 All I can find is this hard to read record in a BT334 Register: KingDavid.jpg King David 10.07.1917 [O.N. 106510] Surnames Richardson and Bradbier ? Terry Can you post the full page so we can see the entry in context? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 7 February , 2016 Share Posted 7 February , 2016 Found this in Welsh papers: WAR JOTTINGS Others who have been submarined…… Capt. John Evans, Grenefield, s.s. King David.… The Carmarthen Journal and South Wales Weekly Advertiser (Second Edition) 27th July 1917 Page 3 Still no result in Geoff or CWGC. Found no report in BNA papers. Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 7 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2016 Ladies and Gents, Thank you for this. You have helped me to prove my theory! Bradbeer and Richardson are not non-commemorations, they were the gunners from the Obuasi that was sunk by U49 on 8th July. It is a long and involved story, but I have evidence that they were on deck on the U49 when the Skipper of the King David came alongside in an open boat. Their deaths on CWGC are tied to Obuasi with a date of death as 11th July. There are still things I need to do, but I think I am on the cusp of solving a 99 year old mystery surrounding what happened to these 2 lads - and a lot of the credit for that must go to the members on this Forum. I keep saying that I am new to sailors - and I am. Without your pointers as to where to look I would never have done this. My sincere thanks to all. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 7 February , 2016 Share Posted 7 February , 2016 Find My Past has Deaths At Sea, 1781-1968 There are many Jenkins & Evans, but not listed with SS King David. Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 7 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2016 I have found a reference here.............. http://www.llanon.org.uk/joyceweb/WWI/ww1commemoration.htm To ........ "David L Jenkins. July 1st 1917. Certificate lost in the S.S.King David, sunk by shellfire from enemy submarine." Can anyone enlighten me as to what "Certificate lost" means? Could he and Evans be non-commemorations? Regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 7 February , 2016 Share Posted 7 February , 2016 For anyone interested, a description of the actions of Bradbeer and Richardson on 8th July is here; http://www.greatwar.eclipse.co.uk/WWImore/Bradbeer_RJE_more.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 7 February , 2016 Share Posted 7 February , 2016 I have found a reference here.............. http://www.llanon.org.uk/joyceweb/WWI/ww1commemoration.htm To ........ "David L Jenkins. July 1st 1917. Certificate lost in the S.S.King David, sunk by shellfire from enemy submarine." Can anyone enlighten me as to what "Certificate lost" means? Could he and Evans be non-commemorations? Regards, Mike Quote" I have found a reference here.............." See posts 10 & 11 also. Re. Certificate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_Discharge_Certificate Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 7 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2016 Quote" I have found a reference here.............." See posts 10 & 11 also. Re. Certificate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_Discharge_Certificate Kath. Sorry Kath, I had no intention of stealing your find! Having read your latest post and the link about Certificates, I am however perhaps being particularly stupid. I am afraid you will have to spell it out for me. Are we saying that he lost a bit of paper or that he died? Sorry to be dense - but really have no idea, or I wouldn't ask. Regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 7 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2016 For anyone interested, a description of the actions of Bradbeer and Richardson on 8th July is here; http://www.greatwar.eclipse.co.uk/WWImore/Bradbeer_RJE_more.htm I have made several attempts to contact the author of that via email and post, but have not received a reply. If anyone can help with that it would be appreciated. The emails I have sent just keep being bounced back. Regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 7 February , 2016 Share Posted 7 February , 2016 Mike, there is an explanation & some good images here of Certificates: http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/archive/displays/seafarers-certificates/discharge-certificates.aspx Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 7 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2016 Mike, there is an explanation & some good images here of Certificates: http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/archive/displays/seafarers-certificates/discharge-certificates.aspx Kath. Thanks Kath! Regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 7 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2016 Looking at all of the above, I should tell you more of what I already know. I try to keep my forum posts to a minimum of content so that I can ask for help where I need it most. It is not about keeping secrets, but more about not ending up with opening posts from me that are 9 miles long. I hope that makes sense. Bradbeer and Richardson are known to have been on deck aboard the U49 during the attack on King David. It is also known that the Master of this ship came alongside the submarine when he left the ship. I am theorising now that Jenkins was perhaps in the boat with him. I believe that something happened which led to the deaths of Bradbeer and Richardson, and I don't think that either Evans or Jenkins were taken prisoner aboard the U-Boat, because they seem to be missing from a prisoner tally at the end of the patrol of the U49. I have actually been studying the Obuasi for about 6 months now, even to the point of producing a 30 page document that draws together all I know. It became clear a couple of days ago that the precise fate of Bradbeer and Richardson, unknown for 99 years, was deeply intertwined with the loss of the King David, which has forced my attention onto her, though I had found very little on the internet - certainly not enough to prove any of my theories. Some of the information given to me here on this post has been absolutely crucial in pushing my investigations forward. The circumstances of the deaths of Bradbeer and Richardson are now slowly beginning to emerge from the mists. I am trying to get hold of the ADM137 papers on King David now, they may be the final missing pieces of evidence that will actually take me all the way. They may even yield the fates of Evans and Jenkins. I must add that none of this research would have been possible without the kindness and goodwill of several members here. I have had help from all over the place, but I will not name names in case they would not like it mentioned. Needless to say, I am very grateful for the help on this thread. Warmest regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 7 February , 2016 Share Posted 7 February , 2016 (edited) Have you seen the entries of crew lists for SS King David in the Maritime History Archive of the Memrial University of Newfoundland? https://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/viewcombinedcrews.php?Official_No=106510 Kath. And this: http://www.corkshipwrecks.net/ussperkinsdd26.html http://uboat.net/wwi/men/commanders/258.html Edited 7 February , 2016 by Kath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medaler Posted 7 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2016 Have you seen the entries of crew lists for SS King David in the Maritime History Archive of the Memrial University of Newfoundland? https://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/viewcombinedcrews.php?Official_No=106510 Kath. That is a good point. I have seen lists from 1915 where John O Evans is listed as Master, but I felt that they were too far off in time to make it certain that held that post aboard when she was sunk. It is only in the last couple of days that my attention has swung onto King David because I came at her from an odd angle. You know, I started with one ship and then the evidence pointed to another. As if the Obuasi wasn't enough trouble! I will post on here when the ADM papers arrive if they yield anything good. It looks like I have almost solved one mystery only to be presented with another. For the full story they both need to be solved. I picked a real good'un to start me on sailors didn't I? The process of discovery has had me completely enthralled, and I have learned loads. Six months ago I had no idea what a DAM was! Regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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