Royal Engineers and the Labour Corps in the Forest of Lyons, Normadny,

[Oldleg]

I have been carrying out some research on the local forest surrounding the village of Lyons La Forêt in upper Normandy and have found the that Royal Engineers were here during the period of 1917 to 1918. I believe that they may have been here as there was a railway system set up to carry wood to be processed before behind sent to the front. Can anyone tell me what batallion it was that was stationed here and what they were responsible for?

I am also trying to find maps of where these railway lines ran as I have spoken to the chief of the local forestry comission (ONF) and he has no idea where it ran but would like to find out as he is keen on developing a knowledge on what went on in his forest.

I know that there are photos in the Imperial War Museums collection of our forest but I would love find others if anyone has any. I also want to hear about an of the men that worked here. I have already done on an article on Lieutenant James Richard Sutherland on the Facebook page Les Héros à Lyons La Forêt but would like to develope anything about him and those who worked with him;

Any help in this matter would be much appreciated.

[sotonmate]

There are just 6 Royal Engineer Forestry Companies with 2 War Diaries in the National Archives database: (1) 365 ; 366 ; 367 and (2) 368 ; 370 and 371.

They are digital and downloadable and might be a good way of discovering which of them served around Lyons La Foret.

[Oldleg]

Cheers for that. I will look them up online. It is too far for me to go to Kew.

[KevinBattle]

Nice to see you've made it here from WW2Talk and are keen to help the locals find out what went on in their area in both World Wars!

Good luck with your researching!

sotonmate is advising that there are 6 Forestry Companies that have War Diaries available from the National Archives, but I believe there were a greater number than six!

For what little is may add, these are the 18 CWGC casuak#lties with a Forestry Company...

TREBLE FRANCIS F 51 17/10/1917 Company Serjeant Major Royal Engineers 9th Forestry Coy. France '125073' MONT HUON MILITARY CEMETERY, LE TREPORT III. O. 10B. HUSBAND OF ISABEL TREBLE, OF "OPHAR," GRANVILLE RD., SOUTHFIELDS, LONDON.

SMEDLEY J S G 25 15/04/1918 Company Quartermaster Serjeant Royal Engineers 11th Forestry Coy. United Kingdom '311376' BRIGHTON (THE DOWNS) CEMETERY D. 601. (SERVED AS MAY). SON OF MR. E. H. SMEDLEY; HUSBAND OF ANNIE SARAH FRANCES SMEDLEY, OF BRIGHTON PEEL RD., GOSPORT. BORN AT TRANMERE, CHESHIRE.

BARDEN GEORGE G 32 17/04/1918 Sapper Royal Engineers 363rd Forestry Coy. France '471982' CHOCQUES MILITARY CEMETERY III. C. 14. SON OF EDWARD AND JANE BARDEN, OF PEMBURY, KENT.

SMITH CLAUDE WILLIAM C W 27 15/05/1918 Sapper Royal Engineers 363rd Forestry Coy. France '313039' ETAPLES MILITARY CEMETERY LXVIII. B. 1. SON OF JOHN CHINERY SMITH AND ELEANOR MARY SMITH; HUSBAND OF VIOLET E. SMITH, OF 110, LEISTON RD., FRISTON, SAXMUNDHAM. BORN AT KNODISHALL, SAXMUNDHAM.

CROUDACE S R 24/05/1918 Sapper Royal Engineers 370th Forestry Coy. France '252455' MONT HUON MILITARY CEMETERY, LE TREPORT VI. K. 1B.

PHILLIPS WILLIAM W 24 09/07/1918 Sapper Royal Engineers 365th Forestry Coy. France '416041' HUBY-ST. LEU BRITISH CEMETERY C. 2. SON OF JOHN AND JANET PHILLIPS; HUSBAND OF MRS. PHILLIPS, OF 147, HOSPITAL ST., SOUTH SIDE, GLASGOW.

WEBB GEORGE G 31 01/09/1918 Sapper Royal Engineers 371st Forestry Coy. France '213571' ST. SEVER CEMETERY EXTENSION, ROUEN R. II. O. 2. SON OF ANGELINE WEBB; HUSBAND OF CLARA WEBB, OF LITTLE LONDON, SILVERSTONE, TOWCESTER, NORTHANTS.

COWE A 21 23/10/1918 Sapper Royal Engineers 552nd Army Troops Coy., attd. 368th Forestry Coy. France '408101' ST. SEVER CEMETERY EXTENSION, ROUEN S. II. DD. 7. SON OF MR. AND MRS. JAMES COWE, OF 13, SEAMOUNT PLACE, ABERDEEN.

SELLEY JESSE J 28 24/10/1918 Sapper Royal Engineers 364th Forestry Coy. France '313339' STE. MARIE CEMETERY, LE HAVRE Div. 62. V. N. 1. HUSBAND OF BEATRICE ANNIE SELLEY, OF 4, BROWN'S BUILDINGS, TAUNTON RD., BRIDGWATER, SOMERSET.

HALL H 29/10/1918 Sapper Royal Engineers 364th Forestry Coy. France '361986' ABBEVILLE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION IV. K. 13.

THOMPSON ERNEST ALFRED E A 36 04/12/1918 Corporal Royal Engineers 361st Forestry Coy. France '551808' LES BARAQUES MILITARY CEMETERY, SANGATTE VII. B. 4A. HUSBAND OF M. E. THOMPSON, OF 82, DOWNS PARK RD., HACKNEY, LONDON.

PEART ENOCH E 33 05/12/1918 Sapper Royal Engineers 367th Forestry Coy. France '252404' JANVAL CEMETERY, DIEPPE I. ZZ. 5. SON OF ENOCH AND MARY PEART, OF GREAT COMBERTON; HUSBAND OF EDITH PEART, OF GREAT COMBERTON, PERSHORE, WORCESTERSHIRE. SERVEDFOURYEARS IN FRANCE.

BEVERLEY ANDREW A 21 10/12/1918 Pioneer Royal Engineers 367th Forestry Coy. France '252082' JANVAL CEMETERY, DIEPPE II. A. 5. SON OF ANDREW BEVERLEY, OF REFF ROOMS, DUTHIE PARK, ABERDEEN.

McLELLAND R F 14/12/1918 Serjeant Royal Engineers 363rd Forestry Coy. United Kingdom '415914' CADDER CEMETERY 3007

LAWSON WALLACE THOMAS W T 26 14/01/1919 Sapper Royal Engineers 362nd Forestry Coy. United Kingdom '488344' GREAT WYRLEY CEMETERY B. 213. SON OF THOMAS AND EMMA LAWSON, OF 88, STATION ST., CHESLYN HAY, WALSALL.

LEVER JOHN CHARLES J C 25 18/01/1919 Sapper Royal Engineers 365th Forestry Coy. United Kingdom '312696' BROOKWOOD MILITARY CEMETERY VI. D. 3. LONG SERVICE AND GOOD CONDUCT MEDAL. SON OF MARY ANN LEVER, OF 4, RABY ST., STEPNEY, LONDON.

WYATT W H 25/02/1919 Sapper Royal Engineers 361st Forestry Coy France '514427' LES BARAQUES MILITARY CEMETERY, SANGATTE VIII. G. 2.

MURRAY W 20/03/1919 Sapper Royal Engineers 363rd Forestry Coy. France '411963' STE. MARIE CEMETERY, LE HAVRE Div. 64. VII. Q. 1. HUSBAND OF MARGARET MURRAY, OF 18, ROSEBANK ST., DUNDEE.

Are there CWGC Cemeteries near you?

If so, they may have some Royal Engineers or other units that could also have been stationed in the vicinity.

Do you have any French Local History Clubs that may also give you details of what French units may have been there too?

Virtually every village in France lost men, so there could be a wealth of military information "out there"

Good luck!

[Martin Bennitt]

Hope you come up with something. Lyons la Forêt is a lovely town which I visit from time to time, being only about 100 km from chez moi. The forestry companies must have thought it idyllic.

Cheers Martin B

[Oldleg]

I have had a look at the archives and I just wanted to ask what they meant by Lines of Communications troops? I know it might appear like a daft question but I am unsure quite what they mean by that.

[Martin Bennitt]

Essentially support troops for the fighting men at the front line. There were many more providing what the Army needed than there were troops at the sharp end facing the enemy.

Cheers Martin B

[Oldleg]

Cheers for that information Kevin. It would be interesting to see if any of these guys were in our forest!!!

[redbarchetta]

I have two photo albums from an officer in 366 Forest Co. - all with detailed annotations, except his name (his initials are JC, and that is how he refers to himself in all the photos).

Unfortunately he is based at Brotonne Foret, just the other side of Rouen from you!

Nice photo of the car and driver of Capt Rollin of the French Forest Service (but sans the Capt himself!!).

Photos of Routot Sawmill - but again, I guess you had your own at Lyons - German prisoners, Indian labourers etc Images of the light railway they had at Brotonne.

Have to agree, was a relatively nice life, judging from the photos...

One of those 'interesting' things I acquired at an auction years ago, then never go around to doing anything with...!

James

[sotonmate]

KB

​Can't add any more War Diaries to the 2 I listed, having checked the ones you list. Maybe they are called something else or grouped in with other RE functions ?

[KevinBattle]

sotonmate, sorry I just dabbled on the Unit section of the CWGC database with "Forestry" and it showed 11,16, 129/130/131; 330. 335/6/7; 361/2/3/4/5/6/7 etc...

However, it then only produced those 18 "hits"....

Might need a Royal Engineers specialist to clarify, as they had all sorts of sub divisions...

(and I wasn't criticising your listing of 6 Companies, hopefully you understood i was saying that those 6 were the only ones found in the National Archives

[sotonmate]

KB

No worries !

I was thinking about this again as it seemed that the WDs that I found for 365 -371 RE Companies were concentrated 1917-1918 and not seemingly a lot of resource bearing in mind the need for timber. Carting it in across the sea could not have been a smart and best-use of floating assets. It took not long to uncover the might of the Canadian Forestry Corps,35000, probably more natural,lumberjacks (who seemed alright) in dozens of Companies from Nov 1916, so might explain why we didn't have so many ourselves !

[Oldleg]

There may have been some Canadians but I know for a fact w had Scots there as I have been doing a little research on Lieutenant James Ricard Saige Sutherland who was with the Royal Engineers. He was originally in the Lova's Scouts regiment.

[Oldleg]

On 1/25/2016 at 23:30, sotonmate said:

KB

No worries !

I was thinking about this again as it seemed that the WDs that I found for 365 -371 RE Companies were concentrated 1917-1918 and not seemingly a lot of resource bearing in mind the need for timber. Carting it in across the sea could not have been a smart and best-use of floating assets. It took not long to uncover the might of the Canadian Forestry Corps,35000, probably more natural,lumberjacks (who seemed alright) in dozens of Companies from Nov 1916, so might explain why we didn't have so many ourselves !

Sorry for being away for so long from this topic. It has been busy around here for a while. I know for certain that James Richard Saige Sutherland who was originally in the Lovatts Scouts was here in Lyons La Forêt in in 1918. At the time he was in the Royal Engineers but I don't know which company, is there any way of finding out which company he was in? His medal card from the archives at Kew don't say which company he was in as far as I can remember.  

[Oldleg]

At the moment I am reading the excellent No Labour, No Battle. It the book it talks of an officer by the name of Herbert Cunningham Clogstoun who was in the Indian Labour corps. Now, as far as I know the Indian labour corps was here, in Lyons La Forêt according the IWM. Can anyone tell me if mr Clogstoun was based here at all?    

Edited 7 November , 2016 by Oldleg

[sotonmate]

Oldleg

 

I see that there are likely 3 service files at Kew which would be readable on that site:

WO339/55936 is for a Lt Col James Sutherland RE (1914-1922), and,

WO339/65254 for a Captain James Sutherland of the General List (1914-1922). Do you know if he managed to reach the heights of Lt Col ?

The other file :

WO339/118787 is for a Captain Clogstown Herbert Clogstoun (sic) of the Labour Corps.

You will no doubt get some answers from 2 of the three !

If you are unable to go for yourself I can look when I go next at the end of November. Please advise one way or the other by personal message here.

[Ron Clifton]

Much of the British forestry work on the Western Front was carried out by the Canadians. These are the relevant diaries, which will not yet have been digitised.

 

WO 95/4072 Lines of Communication Troops   
WO 95/4072 Headquarters Canadian Forestry Corps 1916 Nov. - 1919 Mar.  
WO 95/4072 Bordeaux Group Canadian Forestry Corps 1918 Feb. - 1919 Apr.  
WO 95/4072 Central Group Canadian Forestry Corps 1917 Apr. - 1919 Feb.  
WO 95/4072 Jura Group Canadian Forestry Corps 1917 Jan. - 1919 Mar.  
WO 95/4072 Marne Group Canadian Forestry Corps 1918 Sept. - 1919 Feb.  
WO 95/4072 Paris Detachment Canadian Forestry Corps 1917 Nov. - 1918 Feb.  
WO 95/4072 Technical Warehouse Canadian Forestry Corps 1917 Apr. - 1919 Mar.  
WO 95/4072 No. 1 District Canadian Forestry Corps 1917 Aug. - 1919 Mar.  
WO 95/4072 2 District Canadian Forestry Corps 1917 Oct. - 1919 Mar.  
WO 95/4073    
WO 95/4073 Lines of Communication Troops   
WO 95/4073 4 District Canadian Forestry Corps 1917 July - 1919 Mar.  
WO 95/4073 5 District Canadian Forestry Corps 1917 July - 1919 Mar.  
WO 95/4073 6 District Canadian Forestry Corps 1917 July - 1919 Feb.  
WO 95/4073 9 District Canadian Forestry Corps 1917 May - 1919 Jan.  
WO 95/4073 10 District Canadian Forestry Corps 1917 Nov. - 1919 Mar.  
WO 95/4073 11 District Canadian Forestry Corps 1918 Jan. - Dec.  
WO 95/4073 12 District Canadian Forestry Corps 1917 June - 1919 Apr.  
WO 95/4073 1 Canadian Forest Company 1915 Sept. - 1919 Mar.  
 

Ron

[Oldleg]

On 11/9/2016 at 11:55, Ron Clifton said:

Much of the British forestry work on the Western Front was carried out by the Canadians. These are the relevant diaries, which will not yet have been digitised.

 

WO 95/4072 Lines of Communication Troops   
WO 95/4072 Headquarters Canadian Forestry Corps 1916 Nov. - 1919 Mar.  
WO 95/4072 Bordeaux Group Canadian Forestry Corps 1918 Feb. - 1919 Apr.  
WO 95/4072 Central Group Canadian Forestry Corps 1917 Apr. - 1919 Feb.  
WO 95/4072 Jura Group Canadian Forestry Corps 1917 Jan. - 1919 Mar.  
WO 95/4072 Marne Group Canadian Forestry Corps 1918 Sept. - 1919 Feb.  
WO 95/4072 Paris Detachment Canadian Forestry Corps 1917 Nov. - 1918 Feb.  
WO 95/4072 Technical Warehouse Canadian Forestry Corps 1917 Apr. - 1919 Mar.  
WO 95/4072 No. 1 District Canadian Forestry Corps 1917 Aug. - 1919 Mar.  
WO 95/4072 2 District Canadian Forestry Corps 1917 Oct. - 1919 Mar.  
WO 95/4073    
WO 95/4073 Lines of Communication Troops   
WO 95/4073 4 District Canadian Forestry Corps 1917 July - 1919 Mar.  
WO 95/4073 5 District Canadian Forestry Corps 1917 July - 1919 Mar.  
WO 95/4073 6 District Canadian Forestry Corps 1917 July - 1919 Feb.  
WO 95/4073 9 District Canadian Forestry Corps 1917 May - 1919 Jan.  
WO 95/4073 10 District Canadian Forestry Corps 1917 Nov. - 1919 Mar.  
WO 95/4073 11 District Canadian Forestry Corps 1918 Jan. - Dec.  
WO 95/4073 12 District Canadian Forestry Corps 1917 June - 1919 Apr.  
WO 95/4073 1 Canadian Forest Company 1915 Sept. - 1919 Mar.  
 

Ron

Ron, do you know if there are any maps that indicate where each District was? 

 

[sotonmate]

Oldleg

 

Not so sure that either of two files I saw yesterday are for your man. Both men have only 1 initial entered. As I have your e-mail I will send them to you for you to decide.

1) WO339/55936.Lt Col James Sutherland RE, DSO MBE, seems to have been a career Railways Wallah in India pre-war, and in East Africa (Dar-es-Salaam), in France, and then latterly in Mespot/Persia,from where he was evacuated with illness in Feb 1919. Born 1866. De-Commissioned Aug 1919.

2) WO339/65254. Lt J Sutherland who served with the Nyasaland - Rhodesia Frontier Force.

[sotonmate]

On 07/11/2016 at 10:28, Oldleg said:

At the moment I am reading the excellent No Labour, No Battle. It the book it talks of an officer by the name of Herbert Cunningham Clogstoun who was in the Indian Labour corps. Now, as far as I know the Indian labour corps was here, in Lyons La Forêt according the IWM. Can anyone tell me if mr Clogstoun was based here at all?    

WO339/118787. Captain Clogstoun CIE OBE's scant details will be en route to you shortly.

[Oldleg]

Cheers mate.

 

Olek.   

[Oldleg]

8 hours ago, sotonmate said:

Oldleg

 

Not so sure that either of two files I saw yesterday are for your man. Both men have only 1 initial entered. As I have your e-mail I will send them to you for you to decide.

1) WO339/55936.Lt Col James Sutherland RE, DSO MBE, seems to have been a career Railways Wallah in India pre-war, and in East Africa (Dar-es-Salaam), in France, and then latterly in Mespot/Persia,from where he was evacuated with illness in Feb 1919. Born 1866. De-Commissioned Aug 1919.

2) WO339/65254. Lt J Sutherland who served with the Nyasaland - Rhodesia Frontier Force.

I know the James Sutherland I am looking at was in Arfica... So, you may have something there. I believe he may have been in India as well. 

 

[sotonmate]

OK. I will send you the pics I made for Lt Col. There is no ref to him being Lovat Scouts in the File though, as he was a career Railways man in India pre-war.

[Oldleg]

On 11/30/2016 at 13:59, sotonmate said:

Oldleg

 

Not so sure that either of two files I saw yesterday are for your man. Both men have only 1 initial entered. As I have your e-mail I will send them to you for you to decide.

1) WO339/55936.Lt Col James Sutherland RE, DSO MBE, seems to have been a career Railways Wallah in India pre-war, and in East Africa (Dar-es-Salaam), in France, and then latterly in Mespot/Persia,from where he was evacuated with illness in Feb 1919. Born 1866. De-Commissioned Aug 1919.

2) WO339/65254. Lt J Sutherland who served with the Nyasaland - Rhodesia Frontier Force.

I know the James Sutherland I am looking at was in Arfica... So, you may have something there. I believe he may have been in India as well. 

 

[Oldleg]

Old sweats, I appreciate everything that you have done, even if the doc are not related to the man I am looking for. I have fouhd the names of two Indian companies that were in the area and I want to know if anyone has any photos of them and docs belongong to them. They are the 27 & 28 Lushai companies according to No Labour No Battle.