philary Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 Hello Everyone, On a recent visit to Cambrai East Military Cemetery we noticed a large group of Russian soldiers buried there, their graves marked with French headstones. Why would this be so and was it common practice? Thanks. Hilary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTS Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 That actually seems to be standard practice for the lesser ( no disrespect intended ) combatants on the Western Front. The Russian & Polish cemetries between Reims and Suippes all have French style headstones, as do the Italians at their cemetery on the Aisne south of The Chemin des Dames. I assume it was done purely for reasons of convenience & economy after the war ended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
healdav Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 I depends on the war. The Russians of WW1 seem to have French style headstones, but those buried in France from WW2 (and there were quite a lot) have an isosceles triangle shaped stone on a little pillar, the whole stands the same height as the French headstone. The strange point i, and I can find no one who can explain this, is that some of these are marked, 'Soldat Sovietique' and some, 'Soldat Russe'. And all in the same row and sometimes next to one another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 The Russians were serving as part of the French army equipped with French kit and hence the French headstones. The plaques on the crosses even state "Mort Pour La France". There is an excellent description of their activities in Chris Baker's booklet distributed to those lucky Pals on the Forum Verdun trip earlier in the year. Russian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 For Russians buried in CWGC cemeteries different headstones were (sometimes?)used. I'll try to find some examples tonight. Regards, Marco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 This might not be completely accurate but the jist is correct ... following the Russian Revolution the Russians fighting on the WF were transferred en-masse into the Russian Legion and were under French command, and no doubt provisioned by them. The Russians were, therefore, operating as part of the French army in the same way as the Foreign Legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 Here is a Russian headstone in a CWGC cemetery (WW2). I apologise to the photographer but I have lost track of who sent me this pic (may have been you Marco). Apologies again - It was CROONAERT ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broznitsky Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 following the Russian Revolution the Russians fighting on the WF were transferred en-masse into the Russian Legion and were under French command, and no doubt provisioned by them. Just to correct a little, even before the Revolution the Russian Expeditionary Force on the WF was under French direction and was French-equipped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 following the Russian Revolution the Russians fighting on the WF were transferred en-masse into the Russian Legion and were under French command, and no doubt provisioned by them. Just to correct a little, even before the Revolution the Russian Expeditionary Force on the WF was under French direction and was French-equipped. Agreed but the point I wished to make was that following the Revolution in Russia there was a transfer of official obligation or responsibility - for want of better expressions - from the Imperial Russian army (that no longer existed) to the French army. Thanks all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Burns Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 Poles, Czechs, Russians and Italians were components of the French Forces and as such the French provided headstones. I suppose this is similar to the CWGC providing stones for Indian, Australian and Canadian troops, although I admit my ignorance regarding who funded the CWGC. Take care, Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 I thought the section in Dare Call it Treason about the Russian Legions in France in 1917 was well written. I know very little about their experiences, but after reading the book I at least have a context setting and now how to start looking for more. andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Burns Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 Hi Andy, Check out With Snow on THeir Boots, if you search the forum you'll find reference to it. Best book on the subject. In regards to the Russe vs. Soviet are those stones all from the same period? I could see WWI being Russe and WWII being Soviet but would be surprised if they were marked Soviet for service during WWI. Interesting. Thanks, Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 I suppose this is similar to the CWGC providing stones for Indian, Australian and Canadian troops, although I admit my ignorance regarding who funded the CWGC. Neil Not quite. CWGC cares for graves of all Commonwealth countries because it is an international organisation made up of representatives of six Commonwealth countries - UK, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, India, South Africa (Pakistan, Newfoundland and British West Indies are no longer members). Funding is provided by those six countries in proportion to the number of graves of their nationality. The nationalities in the French military you cite were technically 'French' and therefore cared for by the French. Much in the same way the Chinese Labour Corps were 'British' and therefore are counted as British for funding purposes by CWGC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Burns Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 Hi Terry, Thank you for that, the Chinese Labor Corps is a much better example of what I meant. I was unaware of how the CWGC was funded. Take care, Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 There are several Russian graves marked "Imperial Russian Army" in Terlincthun CWGC cemetery, Wimille, Boulogne. If I recall correctly, they date from 1918, which is post revolution. Perhaps they were in hospital long term in the area when they died, as this is the origin of many of the graves at this cemetery. I searched through A-F for this cemetery on the CWGC site without finding any names, although they are shown on the headstones. I admit that I then gave up and as there are over 4,000 graves there, it does get tedious. The headstones are not as shown in the photos above. They are more like a standard CWGC headstone, but not identical. The text is in English. The graves are not in a separate plot, but in the ordinary rows, which is why I cannot give you a number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 In regards to the Russe vs. Soviet are those stones all from the same period? I could see WWI being Russe and WWII being Soviet but would be surprised if they were marked Soviet for service during WWI. Interesting. Neil, Thanks for the heads up on Snow on Their Boots, I'll look for that. Regarding the Soviet vs. Russe... In Dare there is an extensive section on the growing division between the three Russian divisions who were dividing into Imperial and Soviet camps. Although the grave markers are not specifically talked about, I could see where a distinction would be made. All these events happened in Spring/Summer 1917, so well within the time frame to have a number of gravestones in France of both varieties from WWI. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 Angie The CWGC on-line site does not list Foreign National War Graves in CWGC Care and so you would have had a long search. There are four named Russian graves at Terlincthun along with many German and some Serbian and American plus one Pole. The Russians are... ANDRETISON, Soldier, A, Russian Army. 15th January 1919. Plot 13 Row A Grave 13 LENOW, Soldier, N, Russian Army. 2nd January 1919. Plot 12 Row E Grave 31 NUSAISCHEW, Soldier, C, Russian Army. 21st December 1918. Plot 12 Row D Grave 29 SCHWARTZ, Soldier, A, Russian Army. 18th December 1918. Plot 2 Row D Grave 19 I have access to the 40,000 Foreign Nationals in CWGC Care if anyone needs details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 Thanks Terry, all is explained. I now recall Soldier Schwartz, so I guess I was in row D when I saw them. This is probably why 1918 stuck in my mind. They came a long way to end up on the outskirts of Boulogne! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Burns Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 Regarding the Soviet vs. Russe... In Dare there is an extensive section on the growing division between the three Russian divisions who were dividing into Imperial and Soviet camps. Although the grave markers are not specifically talked about, I could see where a distinction would be made. All these events happened in Spring/Summer 1917, so well within the time frame to have a number of gravestones in France of both varieties from WWI. Andy Hi Andy, The Bolsheviks came to power in November 1917 (Julian Calendar) prior to that the Provisional Government (Kerensky) for the most part held power from January through November. The Bolsheviks initiated peace negotiations with the Germans very soon after taking power so I think, technically at least, no "Soviet" troops particiapted in the War in the West, any Russian troops still fighting beyond November 1918 would be affiliated with the Whites. I would be surprised if the French would allow the distinction of 'Soviet' on a headstone for those of a different political persuasion, particularly since the Soviets were, to the French, responsible for Russia leaving the war. it's been a while since I read Snow... I'm sure this is covered therein. interesting stuff, Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 The Russian ww1 graves I have on file are all of the French type or the 'CWGC' design Terry showed (not my photo, I think ), with the exception of the one below. If you have read this discussion carefully you'll know where he is burried.... Regards, Marco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
healdav Posted 26 November , 2004 Share Posted 26 November , 2004 The headstones I was talking about - 'Soviet' and 'Russian' are all WW2. As I said they are sometimes next to one another in a row. The best suggestion I have had about them is that there were two different blokes making the tallies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 26 November , 2004 Share Posted 26 November , 2004 The plaques on the crosses even state "Mort Pour La France". Re the photo, the French don't keep their grass nice, do they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 26 November , 2004 Share Posted 26 November , 2004 The Belgians treated the Italian POW dead in their Houthulst Cemetery similarly, headstones are same as Belgian but with Italian flag symbol rather than Belgian. The Russians buried in the Orthodox Churchyard at St Hilarie le Grande adjacent to the war time dead in a French style cemetery are officers and wives who remained in France after the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisN Posted 1 December , 2004 Share Posted 1 December , 2004 Good Evening during a trip to Reims in Sept/Oct 2004 we came upon a Russian cemetery (see photo attahced - I hope, I'm still new to this web site...) Who should appear in the the visitors book but Major and Mrs Holt! If they were to write a book it would have some interesting info in it. I will be keeping an eye open. The Russian graves were marked by French style crosses including a name, a regiment e.g. 1er RI ( Russe Infanterie at a guess) and Mort pour la France with a date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisN Posted 1 December , 2004 Share Posted 1 December , 2004 Good Evening during a trip to Reims in Sept/Oct 2004 we came upon a Russian cemetery (see photo attahced - I hope, I'm still new to this web site...) Who should appear in the the visitors book but Major and Mrs Holt! If they were to write a book it would have some interesting info in it. I will be keeping an eye open. The Russian graves were marked by French style crosses including a name, a regiment e.g. 1er RI ( Russe Infanterie at a guess) and Mort pour la France with a date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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