The Watson Brothers (Brig.Gen's William and Harry Watson)

[ddycher]

Had originally posted this in the India sub-forum....trying again here

All

Intriguing one this.

Both sons of Gen Sir John Watson V.C. Both were Brig.-Gen's in India when war was declared. William commanded the Imperial Service Cavalry Bde and Harry the 32nd (Imperial Service) Infantry Bde when these Bde's were formed in October 1914. Both subsequently went to Egypt with IEF E/F.

Now reading up on the family's connections with the Imperial Service Troops.

Anyone come across the brothers before ?

Regards

Dave

[ddycher]

Going to give this one another shot. Not found anything to continue this thread in my research. 

 

Any thoughts folks ?

 

Dave

[ddycher]

Giving it one last go. Have not made any headway on this since my first post. 

 

Regards

Dave

[michaeldr]

Dave,

 

Re Harry

 

Is this Brigadier-General H. D. Watson who commanded the Composite Force at Third Gaza?

 

In early 1918 Allenby appointed him to command the 'Force in Egypt' with the rank temp. Major-General (see page 300, Vol.I of the OH, and page 77 of 'The Advance of the Egyptian Exp...')

 

By 1919 he was Administrator of Palestine (see https://buelahman.wordpress.com/tag/major-general-h-d-watson/) and his daughter was married in Jerusalem in November 1920 (see https://books.google.co.il/books?id=3h5DAQAAIAAJ&pg=RA20-PA43&lpg=RA20-PA43&dq=major-General+H+D+Watson&source=bl&ots=mqXwJqOxae&sig=yYyBQL1f2S7zQdwgdf0ZWgHILfU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi2rubasLTQAhUG7BQKHa-KA80Q6AEIKjAE#v=onepage&q=major-General%20H%20D%20Watson&f=false)

By 1921 he seems to have returned to India (see https://books.google.co.il/books?id=nzUlNjhiITkC&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=major-General+H+D+Watson&source=bl&ots=CdqlI5bkot&sig=XJ5YR19luh_YFSOSDxVNEr0Qcos&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi2rubasLTQAhUG7BQKHa-KA80Q6AEIMjAG#v=onepage&q=major-General%20H%20D%20Watson&f=false)

 

Good luck

Michael

[HarryBrook]

Sir Harry Davis Watson died on 7 May 1945, an obituary was published in The Times the next day.

 

Edited 19 November , 2016 by HarryBrook
corrected a spelling error

[HarryBrook]

Major-General William Arthur Watson died on 25 June 1944, an obituary was published in The Times on Thursday 29 June.

 

[ddycher]

Michael / Harry

 

Thank you both. Very much appreciated.

 

Regards

Dave

[DB4rc]

Sirs,

 

I am the Great Grandson of Sir Harry Watson. My paternal grandfather, Major Richard Dorian Badcock, MC, 1/1st Hants RFA, married Harry's eldest daughter, Doris, in Jerusalem in 1920. My grandfather was the Assistant Chief Immigration Officer after demobilisation in the Military occupation of Palestine. He met his future wife as a result of dealings with General Harry Watson when he was appointed Military Administrator of Palestine. My father Major-General JMW Badcock was a single child born to them in Nazareth in 1922, as Doris sadly died as a result of complications after childbirth. She is buried there. In a rather bizarre twist, another of Harry Watson's daughters, Joan, went to my grandfather's aid to look after the newborn and ended up marrying my Grandfather.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, DB4rc said:

Sirs,

 

I am the Great Grandson of Sir Harry Watson. My paternal grandfather, Major Richard Dorian Badcock, MC, 1/1st Hants RFA, married Harry's eldest daughter, Doris, in Jerusalem in 1920. My grandfather was the Assistant Chief Immigration Officer after demobilisation in the Military occupation of Palestine. He met his future wife as a result of dealings with General Harry Watson when he was appointed Military Administrator of Palestine. My father Major-General JMW Badcock was a single child born to them in Nazareth in 1922, as Doris sadly died as a result of complications after childbirth. She is buried there. In a rather bizarre twist, another of Harry Watson's daughters, Joan, went to my grandfather's aid to look after the newborn and ended up marrying my Grandfather.

That’s very interesting, thank you for posting.  Although a twist I don’t think that it was bizarre that your step grandmother did what she did.  Such was the tragic loss among the menfolk of families throughout Britain, the Dominions and the Empire that it wasn’t at all uncommon for selfless, related women to do what she did.

It seems an interesting family, I had heard of Watson of Watson’s Horse before, but did not know of his military progeny.  

Edited 21 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[DB4rc]

30 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

That’s very interesting, thank you for posting.  Although a twist I don’t think that it was bizarre that your step grandmother did what she did.  Such was the tragic loss among the menfolk of families throughout Britain, the Dominions and the Empire that it wasn’t at all uncommon for selfless, related women to do what she did.

It seems an interesting family, I had heard of Watson of Watson’s Horse before, but did not know of his military progeny.  

Frogsmile,

 

I see that you have found the picture of a reproduction of the moment that my Great Great Grandfather, General Sir John Watson won his VC. The citation and the medal are now housed in the Imperial War Museum, as part of the Lord Ashcroft collection.

 

With regard to Harry's older brother, William, you can see above on an earlier entry about as much as we know. My father does have memories of him when he was at boarding school, in that his Great Uncle would 'take him out' occasionally. He's remembered as being a 'kindly old man', not much more. He died whilst living at Telescombe, Sussex and is buried back at his family 'home', in Finchampstead Church, Berks, as is my Great Grandfather, Major-General Sir Harry Watson, who died at Finchampstead.. Harry was born in Murril, India.

 

Notes that we hold in a family tree app, which both confirm and add titbits are as follows:

 

Watson, Major General Sir Harry Davis
19 August 1890 to 6 January 1910
KBE LG 6 June 1919. CB LG 31 May 1918. CMG LG 29 October 1915. C1E 19 March 1906JLG 15  May 1906]. MVO (4* Class) 27 December 1911 [LG 13 February 1912]. Order of the Nile (3fc'Class) 1916. Legion d'Honneur (4th Class) (Officier). Order of St Maurice and St Lazarus (3r d Class) (Commander). Order of the Crown of Italy (3r d Class) (Commander).
b. 18 July 1866. Youngest son of Lieutenant General Sir John Watson, VC, GCB, late Bombay Staff Corps. Educated at Charterhouse School, Surrey, and the Royal Military College Sandhurst, m. 1895 Ada Mary, d. of W.H. Reynolds, Esq. Ones. Two d. d.
Lt Dorset 7 Feb 1885. Lt BSC 2 Jun 1886 with seniority 7 February 1885. Capt 7 Feb 1896. Maj 7 Feb 1903. Lt Col 6 Jan 1910. Col 19 Apr 1914. T/Brig Gen 11 Sep 1914 [LG 27 Aug 1915] to 6 Jan 1918 T/Maj Gen 7 Jan to 16 Sep 1918. Maj Gen 17 Sep 1918. Retired 1 Apr 1924.
Harry Watson, known to his friends in the 2n d Goorkhas as 'Long' Watson because of his tall thin figure, was a Queen's India Cadet at the Royal Military College Sandhurst from which he was gazetted to a Commission in The Dorsetshire Regiment in February 1885. He transferred to the Indian Staff Corps and was temporarily attached to the 1st Goorkha Light Infantry from that date whilst awaiting a vacancy in the 2n d Goorkhas. Whilst with the 2n d Battalion 1st Goorkhas he saw active service in Sikkim and took part in the attack on Jalapla on 24 eptember 1888. He joined the 2n d Battalion 2n d Goorkhas in Dehra Dun on 19 August 1890 and, the 2n d Battalion Digest of Services records, "subsequently proceeded to join the Detachment at Fort Tregear - Lushai." He arrived back in Dehra with the Fort Tregear Detachment on 5 April 1891. He was QM of the 2 n d Battalion from 2 March 1893 to 31 anuary 1894 when he left on crossposting to the 1st Battalion as Adjutant from 31 January 1894 to 6 February 1896. 
Harry Watson passed in Musketry and Parvatia and qualified for Staff employment. On giving up the Adjutancy he was attached to Imperial Service Troops from 7 November 1896 to 30 April 1903 as Assistant Inspecting Officer Rajputana State Infantry and later Punjab State Infantry, Ambala. He accompanied the China Expeditionary Force in 1900, as DAAG, Imperial Service Troops. On 29 March 1900 he was cross-posted to the 2n d Battalion as a Double Company Commander and accompanied the Coronation Contingent to England in 1902 in command of the Imperial Service Troops Contingent. He is shown in one of the old photographs as carrying one of the old Colours of the Sirmoor Battalion when those were laid up in the Royal United Services Institute in Whitehall. On 30 April 1903 he reported his
arrival in the l s l Battalion and on 16 July 1903 he was appointed to command No. 2 D C C
 He served as ADC to the Prince of Wales during his tour of India in 1905 and was appointed Extra Equerry to the Prince of Wales by LG 10 July 1896 [EGI 198 of 8 June 1906] and appointed CIE in EGI 328 of 3 August 1906.
On 2 April 1906 he was made 2IC of the l s l Battalion by Eastern Command Order 204 of 26 April 1906.
As 2IC he left Dehra Dun with the battalion on 21 September 1907 and arrived at Kila Drosh on 12 October for the Chitral garrison.
Harry Watson left the battalion in Chitral and on 6 January 1910 was transferred to the 9t h Gurkha Rifles as Commandant of its 2n d Battalion [NAO 10 of 22 January 1910 and LG 22 March 1910], and in the Birthday Honours List in LG 10 June 1910 he was appointed an Extra Equerry to the King. Although he commanded the 2"d/9th until 1914, he served in England with the Coronation Contingent in 1911 and was appointed Extra Equerry to Queen Mary during the Delhi Durbar of 1911-12 for which he was made MVO.
On 25 July 1913 he was appointed officiating Inspector General of Imperial Service Troops and was being confirmed in the appointment on 11 September 1914.
Harry Watson began his World War 1 services with Imperial Service Troops on the Suez Canal. He was on operations in Egypt between 21 November 1914 and 18 March 1916, and with the Egyptian Expeditionary Force from 19 March 1916 to 31 October 1918. He was appointed as a Brigade Commander from 11 October 1914, retaining his temporary rank of Brigadier General [LG 17 August 1915], and became GOC 32n d Infantry Brigade and 20 Infantry Brigade (Northern Canal Section) and also commanded the Palestine L of C Defences. Although both his CB and KBE were conferred in Birthday Honours Lists, the
LGs concerned specifically stated that they were for valuable services in connection with military operations in Egypt. Besides receiving the honours and decorations listed at the top of the previous page, he was mentioned in despatches four times, in LGs 21 June 1916, 6 July 1917, 14 June 1918 and 5 June 1919. On 19 January 1920 he was appointed Military Adviser in Chief, Indian State Forces until his retirement in April 1924.
A keen fisherman, Harry Watson was Hon Secretary of the Dehra Dun Fishing Association in his early days. He was also a good shot and was captain of the battalion shooting team which won the BPRA Meerut Cup in December 1903. He excelled as a raconteur of tales of the regiment from 1890 to 1910, and several of his letters and articles were published in pre-World War 2 Regimental Journals, particularly in Regimental News. 2nd King Edward VII's Own Gurkha Rifles (The Sirmoor Rifles), Vol. II, No. 1, March 1938. He also wrote A Short History of the Services Rendered by the Imperial Service Troops during the Great War 1914-18, published the G of I, Calcutta, 1930. He described himself in this as "late Military Adviser in Chief, Indian State Forces".
In 1928, in which year [at least] he has an entry in Who's Who, Harry Watson was living at Drewston House, Drewsteignton, Devon. But by 1938 he was living at Longwater, Finchampstead , Berkshire.
Medals: India General Service Medal (1854) with clasps SIKKIM and LUSHAI 1889-1892; China Medal (1900); 1914-15 Star; British War Medal 1914-1920; Victory Medal with oak-leaves; King  Edward VII's Coronation Medal 1902; King George V's Coronation Medal 1911; King George V's Silver Jubilee Medal 1935; King George VI's Coronation Medal 1937.
DRW 1 July 2012
 

I hope that you will have found that interesting.

 

DB.

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you, yes I have found that very interesting and I understand the military back story of quite a lot of the military jargon.  Aspects that I have not heard of though are “Queen’s Indian Cadet” and the word “Parvatia”.  Can you elaborate on them?

 

NB.  You might find it interesting to know that it was unique to regiments of the British Indian Army, including Gurkha Rifles, for commissioned officers trained at Sandhurst to fulfil the role of Quartermaster (QM), as well as Adjutant.  This experience gave the officers concerned a unique insight into the nuts and bolts of supporting an infantry battalion in cantonments and in the field. It made for an especially well-rounded Officer who understood profoundly the importance of logistics.

In Imperial regiments the role of QM was always carried out by an officer commissioned from the ranks.

Edited 21 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[DB4rc]

15 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you, yes I have found that very interesting and I understand the military back story of quite a lot of the military jargon.  Aspects that I have not heard of though are “Queen’s Indian Cadet” and the word “Parvatia”.  Can you elaborate on them?

 

NB.  You might find it interesting to know that it was unique to regiments of the British Indian Army, including Gurkha Rifles, for commissioned officers trained at Sandhurst to fulfil the role of Quartermaster (QM), as well as Adjutant.  This experience gave the officers concerned a unique insight into the nuts and bolts of supporting an infantry battalion in cantonments and in the field. It made for an especially well-rounded Officer who understood profoundly the importance of logistics.

In Imperial regiments the role of QM was always carried out by an officer commissioned from the ranks.

No, I can't help you any further with the Queens Indian Cadet or Parvatia, i am afraid. Another area of research immediately opens up . . . .

 

I've found another snippet/recount of my great grandfather, written by my father:

 

Sir Harry served in the Army from 1895 until 1924. Nearly all of this was in India but in WW1 he was appointed as Commander British Forces Egypt in 1918 (His military career is described in his own record). It was there that my father met him and his daughter, Doris. Sir Harry retired in 1924. His father Sir John Watson lived in a large house at North Court, Finchampstead, Berks so Sir Harry rented a house, Drewston House, Drewsteignton, Devon from a relative. When his father died, he and Lady Watson could not afford to live in North Court (somehow he lost many of his assets in a Bank failure) and he purchased a modest house, Longwater, in the same village, Finchampstead where he lived until he died. They were wonderful grandparents to John Badcock, Harry and Hugh Watson whose respective parents were serving abroad. From 1936 John, Harry and Hugh spent most of their school holidays with Sir Harry and Lady Watson.

 

As an Equerry to King George V, I have tried hard to spot my Great Grandfather at the King's funeral in film clips but failed to pin him down. 

 

Rather tangential stuff, but I guess it adds flavour.

 

DB.

 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you, I will see how else I might be able to look into those aspects that are unclear to me. 

[ddycher]

Both

 

Thanks for some fabulous feedback. Travelling at the moment but will get back to you both over the weekend on what I have currently on file.

 

Regards

Dave

[ddycher]

DB

 

Many many thanks for this. it filled in some serious holes in my profile of your Gt. Grandfather. My own interest in Harry Watson centres on his time in Egypt. Where I am most weak is his time with the 20th Ind. Inf. Bde and then the LOC. I show him taking command of the reconstituted 20th Ind. Inf Bde at Ayun Musa on the 3rd January 1916 after the disbandment of the 32nd Bde replacing Frederic Alexander Smith. He was active in No.1 Section through out 1916. By January 1917 he had moved up the canal and was commanding Northern Canal Section. His move to the L.O.C and his movements there are a mystery to me as I find it almost impossible to separate him and William Arthur at this time. Anything you can share here would be appreciated.

 

If you have a photo of Harry that you could share I would be very grateful.

 

Regards

Dave

[DB4rc]

10 hours ago, ddycher said:

DB

 

Many many thanks for this. it filled in some serious holes in my profile of your Gt. Grandfather. My own interest in Harry Watson centres on his time in Egypt. Where I am most weak is his time with the 20th Ind. Inf. Bde and then the LOC. I show him taking command of the reconstituted 20th Ind. Inf Bde at Ayun Musa on the 3rd January 1916 after the disbandment of the 32nd Bde replacing Frederic Alexander Smith. He was active in No.1 Section through out 1916. By January 1917 he had moved up the canal and was commanding Northern Canal Section. His move to the L.O.C and his movements there are a mystery to me as I find it almost impossible to separate him and William Arthur at this time. Anything you can share here would be appreciated.

 

If you have a photo of Harry that you could share I would be very grateful.

 

Regards

Dave

Dave,

 

This is just to acknowledge your entry. I'll get back to you in due course.

 

I do have photos of the whole family. I have additional sources of information and snippets from some research done by a distant cousin who keeps very much in contact with the Indian and Pakistani Regiments. That probably won't help you with the very specific period you are focusing on but it will add to the general body of knowledge.

 

I may have to nudge my father for help in some regards to see if he has any unlikely old documents or even my cousins in NZ.

 

Regards,

DB..

[ddycher]

DB

 

That would be great. Anything I can share with respect to the period just let me know. The 20th Bde particularly is a fascinating study.

 

Regards

Dave

[ddycher]

 

DB

 

Is this your Gt. Grandfather or his brother William ? This taken in Jaffa in 1917.

 

Regards

Dave

[DB4rc]

On 24/01/2020 at 20:32, ddycher said:

 

DB

 

Is this your Gt. Grandfather or his brother William ? This taken in Jaffa in 1917.

 

Regards

Dave

Dave,

 

It's a shame that in that photo (what is your source?), the face is obscured by shadow. I THINK it's more probably Arthur (William Arthur was known as Arthur to most) but I can't say with certainty.  I'm sorry not to be more helpful, immediately, but I need to check out a few things. The photos I have of the family of generals is older (1902-ish )and may not be terribly helpful in the context of the later dates. Please bear with me while I try to get hold of more relevant photos. I believe my father does have Sir Harry's diary, so we will be investigating it in dues course for more details.

 

Regards,

DB.

[DB4rc]

4 hours ago, DB4rc said:

Dave,

 

It's a shame that in that photo (what is your source?), the face is obscured by shadow. I THINK it's more probably Arthur (William Arthur was known as Arthur to most) but I can't say with certainty.  I'm sorry not to be more helpful, immediately, but I need to check out a few things. The photos I have of the family of generals is older (1902-ish )and may not be terribly helpful in the context of the later dates. Please bear with me while I try to get hold of more relevant photos. I believe my father does have Sir Harry's diary, so we will be investigating it in dues course for more details.

 

Regards,

DB.

 

On 24/01/2020 at 20:32, ddycher said:

 

DB

 

Is this your Gt. Grandfather or his brother William ? This taken in Jaffa in 1917.

 

Regards

Dave

Dave,

 

I have sent this image to my father and he confirms that as far as he's concerned it's definitely NOT his grandfather, Maj. Gen Sir Harry Watson. So, it's possibly Maj.Gen Arthur Watson or someone else.

 

I attach a photo of General Sir John Watson's family gathering in about 1902. In terms of the men in the photo, standing,  L to R, I assume the first to be a son-in-law, as of yet unidentified by me, second left is John Hugh Watson, youngest son and youngest child, third left is my great grandfather, Harry Watson (you can see why he had the nickname 'Long Watson') and finally on the right is Arthur Watson. It goes without saying that General Sir john Watson is seated.

 

Make of it what you will.

DB.

Just now, DB4rc said:

 

Dave,

 

I have sent this image to my father and he confirms that as far as he's concerned it's definitely NOT his grandfather, Maj. Gen Sir Harry Watson. So, it's possibly Maj.Gen Arthur Watson or someone else.

 

I attach a photo of General Sir John Watson's family gathering in about 1902. In terms of the men in the photo, standing,  L to R, I assume the first to be a son-in-law, as of yet unidentified by me, second left is John Hugh Watson, youngest son and youngest child, third left is my great grandfather, Harry Watson (you can see why he had the nickname 'Long Watson') and finally on the right is Arthur Watson. It goes without saying that General Sir john Watson is seated.

 

Make of it what you will.

DB.

 

[DB4rc]

John Hugh Watson, born in 1876 in Agar, India was the youngest child. He joined Watson's Horse but was wounded in part of the 7th Indian Cavalry's action in Mesopotamia and was invalided out. In 1900 he was ADC to the C-i-C, India, General Arthur Palmer. I don't know what rank he attained but aim to find out in due course.

 

DB.

 

[ddycher]

DB

 

It definitely looks like the man in the photo above (widely available on eBay) is Arthur Watson - search under General Watson. 
 

I do have a another cut out of your grandfather from the royal visit in early 1900’s. Will post later. Your family shot above further clarifies things for me. Thank you. if you do have access to his diary that would be a fantastic reference point. 
 

Thanks again

Dave

[ddycher]

DB

 

This is the cut out ref'd above. All I had previously.

 

Regards

Dave

Edited 31 January , 2020 by ddycher
Not sure what happened first time but here is the cut out.

[DB4rc]

15 hours ago, ddycher said:

DB

 

It definitely looks like the man in the photo above (widely available on eBay) is Arthur Watson - search under General Watson. 
 

I do have a another cut out of your grandfather from the royal visit in early 1900’s. Will post later. Your family shot above further clarifies things for me. Thank you. if you do have access to his diary that would be a fantastic reference point. 
 

Thanks again

Dave

Dave,

 

I remain not so sure. I think the photo is of another General Watson (there were numerous Brig.Gen Watsons in WW1). I think it's Brig.Gen. C.F. Watson, 60th Brigade, often quoted as involved in the Capture and Surrender of Jerusalem. The first 2 photos of Gen. Watson at Jaffa and with the Mayor of Jerusalem are the same individual and likely to be 'C.F.' due to the story of the surrender and his meeting with the mayor on an acquired 'nag'.

 

The third photo titled 'General Watson, Colonel Storrs, YWCA etc' is actually my great grandfather, I think.

 

Within the EEF, my Great Uncle W.A. Watson started off in charge of 15th Cavalry Brigade in defence of the Suez Canal and then on 31st March, 1916, became a Major-General in command of the Nile Delta region. He had no cause to be in Jaffa or Jerusalem.

 

What do you think?

DB

[michaeldr]

22 minutes ago, DB4rc said:

The third photo titled 'General Watson, Colonel Storrs, YWCA etc' is actually my great grandfather, I think.

Another photograph of that YWCA Fete is dated 11 Nov 1919 and would therefore tie in with post No.5's newspaper cutting which informs that Maj-Gen Sir H D Watson was then 'a chief administrator of occupied enemy territory.'