Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

Sign in to follow this  
agooner

blank medal card ?

Recommended Posts

agooner

Lieutenant William Harold RYDER, Yorkshire Yeomanry and Royal Flying Corps has a medal index card with no medals signified, just an entry K in A 6/7/1917.

That in itself is interesting as he has been recorded as being killed in a crash when testing camera gun?

Does the medal award for War Medal and Victory Medal revolve around having to have been actually in air action against the enemy?

Thanks in advance

Tony

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jerry B

I think he would have to have served abroad and perhaps he never did? The war medal required he at least went abroad whilst the VM required him to have served in a war zone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
agooner

He was definitely in France in June 1917 and is buried at Warloy-Baillon Communal Cemetery Extension, 6:E:1. His "Personal Effects" entry also says K in Action

Most mysterious

Tony

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
helpjpl

Baptised Bardsey, York, 21 November 1896. Son of Charles Foster Ryder. Buried Warloy-Baillon Communal Cemetery Extension.

SDGW states that he was KIA and National Probate Calendar that he was KIA 6 July 1917 in France.

Registers of Soldiers Effects - 2Lt W H Ryder, Yorks Hussars, RFC

Date of death: 6.7.17, In Action

Didn't officers or their NOK have to apply for the Star, BWM and VM ?

William is commemorated at Bardsey Church:

Cleveland Square Archives - Gen Blog - Official Blog of Wakefield Family History Sharing

JP

post-105192-0-32928700-1452946428_thumb.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lawryleslie

According to MoD Medals office WW1 medals were issued, without having to claim, to veterans or their NoK. Although Medals office state that they will no longer issue WW1 medals there is a thread somewhere on GWF that suggested that they will make exceptions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
helpjpl

According to MoD Medals office WW1 medals were issued, without having to claim, to veterans or their NoK. Although Medals office state that they will no longer issue WW1 medals there is a thread somewhere on GWF that suggested that they will make exceptions.

See second paragraph:

British Campaign Medals of the First World War (WW1)

JP

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IPT

11th July 1917 - Yorkshire Evening Post

post-48020-0-77397500-1452948656_thumb.j

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
agooner

There are so many contradictions on protocol with medals, it is no wonder so many seem to be lost, but perhaps were not ever received.

TP

Thanks for what you have variously found anyway

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Old Owl

WW1 campaign medals were issued to either the soldier or his NOK without having to be applied for, however this only applied to soldiers of non commissioned rank or below.

However officers of commissioned rank ie Second Lieutenant and above had to apply for their medals. If the officer was killed during the war then his medals had to be applied for by his NOK.

The MIC to Lieut Ryder appears to show that his medals were neither applied for nor issued. This is born out by the fact that there are no notes on the reverse of the card either, normally these would include the date of the application and also an address for the medals to be sent to.

Hope this clears up the mystery for you.

Robert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kitchener's Bugle

Could not have put it better myself Robert.........

How sad that the family chose not to apply for the Medals & Plaque ........... although they clearly paid for the plaque at Bardsey Church.

That's the sort of issue that fascinates me!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lawryleslie

NA states that officers had to apply for their campaign medals.

Edited by Lawryleslie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TEW

Has it not been said that the MICs were created from the medal roll. Why create a card with no link to a roll, just to annotate KiA??

A 2nd card somewhere? Alternative spelling?? TNA?? Issued via RFC?

TEW

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ss002d6252

Has it not been said that the MICs were created from the medal roll. Why create a card with no link to a roll, just to annotate KiA??

A 2nd card somewhere? Alternative spelling?? TNA?? Issued via RFC?

TEW

I have seen some that appear to have been raised due to enquiries over entitlement - it's possible at some point they started adding to the MIC's to create holding cards where there a query made over entitlement, even if it was to confirm no entitlement so that someone didn't have to chase through the rolls again.

Craig

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Old Owl

Has it not been said that the MICs were created from the medal roll. Why create a card with no link to a roll, just to annotate KiA??

A 2nd card somewhere? Alternative spelling?? TNA?? Issued via RFC?

TEW

Craig is absolutely right. Also had the medals been issued through the Air Ministry then his card would have been annotated as such.

Of course it is always possible that a second card was created but only a thorough search through both the NA and Ancestry would prove this. It may also be worth checking the medal rolls held at the NA and also available on Ancestry.

Robert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Old Owl

Could not have put it better myself Robert.........

How sad that the family chose not to apply for the Medals & Plaque ........... although they clearly paid for the plaque at Bardsey Church.

That's the sort of issue that fascinates me!

It is very sad indeed, but possibly some families were either so overcome by grief or simply unaware that it was their responsibility to claim their relative's medals.

Some may simply have chosen not claim the medals, plaque and scroll, although it is hard to understand a reason for this course of action in this instance, when they went to the trouble and expense of installing a plaque to his memory in the local church.

Robert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
agooner

Thanks to all of you for your explanations, learn a little every day in this hobby. It does seem strange that the family (that of the late Sue Ryder, Baroness of Warsaw and wife of Leonard Cheshire) went to the trouble of raising two private memorials to William and yet failed to claim his medals. The propeller from his crashed aircraft is in the church at LittleThurlow, Suffolk and a plaque installed in the church at Bardsey, Yorkshire, near the family's main home.

We will never know the reason now.

Thanks again...

Tony

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
rflory

It has always surprised me that quite a few officers in the British Army, even field and general officers or their next of kin, did not always apply for their medals. I have two medal groups to regular Lieut. Colonels who received a DSO during the Great War but who never applied for their Great War campaign medals. One survived but never applied for the medals and the other was killed in action and his wife never applied. Also a Brigadier General (late RHA), CMG, DSO, who as a Major commanded E Battery, RHA that fired the first British artillery round on the Western Front (at Bray on 22 Aug 14) but never applied for the clasp to his 1914 Star. Maybe some of them just did not care or did not want to remember the war.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
james_harvey

Medals were never awarded if he was a relation fill in a request form and send to mod they will be issued in approx 3 months time

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
agooner

Reckon we can close this now, thanks for all the replies. We will of course never know now why the family never applied for his medals Learned a bit more about medals now anyway

Thank You

Tony

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tullybrone

Medals were never awarded if he was a relation fill in a request form and send to mod they will be issued in approx 3 months time

James,

Your comments do not apply in the circumstances related in this topic about an officer who did not apply for medals.

Those circumstances are not the same as for your "other rank" relatives on the other thread who had their automatic medal "issue" returned to the "Medal Office" so that you have been able to

make a successful application for their medals as NOK.

Regards

Steve Y

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
james_harvey

If the medal was never issued, you can apply for them now.

Doesn't matter if it is other rank or officer. The MoD are still issuing medals not applied for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kenf48

Just seen this but to get back on topic the medals for RFC men who served overseas after 1916 were issued by the Air Ministry not the War Office. As noted above the cards were an index to, and made up from, the Rolls.

There is an RFC Officers Roll on Ancestry which is blank with just the names of the officers, and a pencil or red ink note ' BWM and VM issued by the Air Ministry. I can't find this officer on this Roll short of browsing the whole book. It might have been helpful if that was on the card but presumably the clerks in the Medals Office knew that if he was shown RFC.

The records on Ancestry are for medals issued by the Army.

You can't assume his medals were not applied for/issued,though given the circumstances noted above it seems more likely they were. You need to search for his service record or in the Air Ministry records afaik these are not online FMP has airmen's records but not officers. His record is at the TNA WO339/128020

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1181841

Ken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tootrock

Ken,

That link is for Cadet Walter Harold Ryder.

The correct NA reference for William Harold Ryder is: WO 372/17/137808

Martin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tullybrone

If the medal was never issued, you can apply for them now.

Doesn't matter if it is other rank or officer. The MoD are still issuing medals not applied for.

James,

Sorry but my understanding is that MOD will only issue medals that were "returned" - hence my creation of returned medals topic that you posted on.

It has been established MOD policy since 1970's not to accept NOK "new" applications for WW1 campaign medals.

However if that policy has changed can you post written confirmation from MOD so that Forum members are aware.

Sorry to have gone off topic but it is an important issue that James has raised that, if he is correct, will assist many members.

Steve Y

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...