British Headgear at Gallipoli?

[rhimsl]

I know the Brodie steel helmet was not introduced until early 1916 for British troops in the field. So what type of headgear was worn into battle for British troops at Gallipoli?

Thanks,

Robert

[Malcolm]

Bush hats for the ANZACS, Solar Topee or Service cap for UK troops.

Aye

Malcolm

[rhimsl]

Malcolm,

Thanks!!!!!!!!!

[bkristof]

I saw several pictures with different head gear at Gallipoli:

- Gor Blimey winter cap

- the regular Stiff cap, with the iron ring removed

- Worsley pith helmets

- The Slouch hat, like the Ausies

- Cap comforters

This was all worn by British soldiers

[Krithia]

I saw several pictures with different head gear at Gallipoli:

- Gor Blimey winter cap

- the regular Stiff cap, with the iron ring removed

- Worsley pith helmets

- The Slouch hat, like the Ausies

- Cap comforters

This was all worn by British soldiers

you might as well add:

- the Glengarry

- the Pattern 1905 'Stiff' cap, with iron ring not removed

- the Australian pattern of 'Stiff' cap with leather peak trim

- the New Zealand 'kiwi' style hat

- Balaclava cap

- Gurhka slouch hat

- General Turban headress for Indian Troops

[bkristof]

Ok what is British offcourse... But i answered what BRITS were wearing.

the Glengarry

>>>> SCOTS (I don't know if the like to be called British)

- the Pattern 1905 'Stiff' cap, with iron ring not removed

>>>> ok, This one i forgot

- the Australian pattern of 'Stiff' cap with leather peak trim

>>>> only Aussies (I believe so)

- the New Zealand 'kiwi' style hat

>>>> only Kiwi's (I believe so)

- Balaclava cap

>>>> Never saw it on a picture, but possible

- Gurhka slouch hat

>>>> also by Brits?

- General Turban headress for Indian Troops

>>>> I don't think Brits would wear that.

[Joe Sweeney]

Might want to also add:

The RND Navy Donald Duck Hat (or whatever its actually called)

The Wolseley Helmet and Pith Helmet are two different types of head gear and both were worn at Gallipoli.

Would the RMLI still have had the Brodricks?

Joe Sweeney

[Guest sapper6]

Regarding the hats worn by Kiwis at Gallipoli there were several types depending on the regiment from slouch, bush and the " Lemon Sqeezer " kiwi hat which was only worn by the Wellington Regiment at that time. I may be wrong but I think there was a South Island Battaloin that wore a type of Tam o Shanter. All of them first rate for stopping bullets and shrapnel dropping on oneself.

[pbrydon]

Going off at a bit of a tangent,I have a letter written in 1958 by H.Y.Usher a very well known collector who died some time ago who says " Note that in Gallipoli May 1915 - Jan 1916- Cape Helles nearly all ORs of whatever unit blackened their badges with burnt (....?) and creosote to prevent reflection in the suns rays.I can vouch for this from personal experience.........."

Peter brydon

[curranl]

Hello All,

With apologies for going off topic, the word missing following "burnt" in Peter's post is probably cork. The cork was charred in a flame and the soot used to cover whatever you needed to hide.

Regards,

Liam.

[bkristof]

Regarding the hats worn by Kiwis at Gallipoli there were several types depending on the regiment from slouch, bush and the " Lemon Sqeezer " kiwi hat which was only worn by the Wellington Regiment at that time. I may be wrong but I think there was a South Island Battaloin that wore a type of Tam o Shanter. All of them first rate for stopping bullets and shrapnel dropping on oneself.

As far as i know, the lemon squeezer was officialy introduced in the rest of the NZ army in 1917.

So the first battle they fought were they had lemon sqeeuzers (behind the lines) was Passchendaele. There are a few pics of NZ soldiers arriving in Poperinge wearing their lemon sqeeuzer. Also there are pics of them studying the scale model of Messines ridge.

[Krithia]

Ok what is British offcourse... But i answered what BRITS were wearing.

the Glengarry

>>>> SCOTS (I don't know if the like to be called British)

- the Pattern 1905 'Stiff' cap, with iron ring not removed

>>>> ok, This one i forgot

- the Australian pattern of 'Stiff' cap with leather peak trim

>>>> only Aussies (I believe so)

- the New Zealand 'kiwi' style hat

>>>> only Kiwi's (I believe so)

- Balaclava cap

>>>> Never saw it on a picture, but possible

- Gurhka slouch hat

>>>> also by Brits?

- General Turban headress for Indian Troops

>>>> I don't think Brits would wear that.

This could start a whole new forum post, which I am sure has been covered before. Is not Scotland part of Great Britain, and the dominions of Australia and NZ and of course the Indian army should not be ignored in this thread.

In 1915 most of the New Zealanders wore either the British 1905 SD cap or the Australian style slouch hat with the exception of the artillery, Otago Mounted Rifles and the Wellington Infantry. These units had a similar pattern of fur hat to the Australians, but wore it with the brim down and the crown creased with four dents, into a ‘lemon-squeezer’ shape. The hat, as instituted by Lt. Col. William Malone the commander of the Wellington Infantry Battalion, soon became a symbol of the New Zealand soldier. By the time the New Zealanders had left Gallipoli for the Western Front, virtually all wore this trademark ‘Kiwi’ hat, later enforced by Major General Godley in an effort to standardize headdress. I think the 1917 date you quote is probably right. Have you got any more precise details on its official introduction?

[Fromelles]

I've seen Aussies wearing the following: -

Aussie Pattern Service Dress cap - with and without wire removed (this was the head dress ordered for the landing),

slouch hat (of course),

worsley (mostly Light Horse)

forage cap,

cap comforter,

Gor Blimey - I'm sure there's a photo of a gun crew wearing these caps (at Cape Helles?); and

any other type of privatly purchaced head gear.

Dan

[Joe Sweeney]

By the time the New Zealanders had left Gallipoli for the Western Front, virtually all wore this trademark ‘Kiwi’ hat, later enforced by Major General Godley in an effort to standardize headdress. I think the 1917 date you quote is probably right. Have you got any more precise details on its official introduction?

Steve,

Info from Militaria Magazine on "Uniforms and Equipment of New Zealanders on the Western Front 1916 to 1918" states that the Lemonsqueezer was adopted in the general reorganization of the NZ forces after Gallipoli. The hat was issued to the NZEF in France in September 1916.

Joe Sweeeny

[bkristof]

So Joe, issued in september, official. But like most things, general used begin 1917 i suppose. So my source was quite correct.

I have from a Flemish book about the battle of Passchendaele.

[michaeldr]

Might want to also add:

The RND Navy Donald Duck Hat (or whatever its actually called)

The Wolseley Helmet and Pith Helmet are two different types of head gear and both were worn at Gallipoli.

Would the RMLI still have had the Brodricks?

Joe Sweeney

Joe,

The naval cap [really, what was their Lordships proper name for it?] was seen on the RND men at Antwerp in 1914 however by 1915 they had changed into khaki and I don’t think that the cap would have been seen at Gallipoli except when on seamen such as those who rowed the men ashore

Pat Francis’ book ‘A Quiet Life’ has quite a few photographs from the RM Museum collection and one shows men in the Brodrick, however per the caption they were an RMA detachment [pictured on a destroyer in the Dardanelles] and not RMLI

Sun helmets were issued to the RND but they were not popular with the men; when you lay down to shoot the rear of the helmet touched your back and was nudged forward over your eyes or knocked off your head. The cap comforter was preferred, but this too had its problems in that it looked similar to the Turkish headgear and there were reports of friendly fire resulting from this.

The variety of headwear allowed seems to have been very broad and several photographs show RND men in felt hats. [see example below, also credited to the RMM and captioned in ‘A Quiet Life’ as men of 1st Naval Brigade] I wonder if these hats were issue? Or were they perhaps just ‘picked-up’ by those RND men who served at Anzac until mid-May? Also note what seems to be a silk shirt on the officer[?] on the left

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Joe Sweeney]

The naval cap [really, what was their Lordships proper name for it?] was seen on the RND men at Antwerp in 1914 however by 1915 they had changed into khaki and I don’t think that the cap would have been seen at Gallipoli except when on seamen such as those who rowed the men ashore

Michael,

Interesting, would you know if the following photo was taken on the Pennisula or at Imbros?

It clearly shows RND men wearing the khaki naval cap with Gen Hamilton in the foreground. Did hamilton actually ever go to the pennisula?

Seeing how impractical these things look I can see why they might have been religated to official occasions and the Wolseley and cap comforter used instead.

Joe Sweeney

[michaeldr]

would you know if the following photo was taken on the Pennisula or at Imbros?

It clearly shows RND men wearing the khaki naval cap with Gen Hamilton in the foreground. Did hamilton actually ever go to the pennisula?

Joe,

The picture which you show is IWM ref Q13516 and it appears, together with IWM Q13509, in John Lee’s biography of Hamilton ‘A Soldier’s Life.’ The latter photograph is captioned as being at GHQ, Imbros and it is implied that your photograph was taken at the same medal ceremony – they certainly look very similar; Staff personalities, RND, tent, etc. As to your second question; yes, Sir Ian did venture forth on occasion and visit the actual battleground

I’m afraid that I took yours and Robert’s previous posts too literally, and you are correct to point out that the Khaki naval cap was in fact seen in the Gallipoli theatre. Whether or not it was worn “into battle” as Robert puts it, is another question. As always, I am open to correction, but in the meantime I have my doubts

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Joe Sweeney]

Here is another interesting Gallipoli photo.

It is to a member of the RND in the trenches.

Looks like the Naval cap. Can't be 100% sure but I did blow it up to see if it was a SD cap turned round and it does not look like it under magnification.

The cap has a sun curtain attached. These were items of issue that simply tied around the cap. I actually took original sun curtains and SD caps and fixed them the photo and they did not sit the same. This is a bit subjective but that could be a Navy cap.

Joe Sweeney

[bkristof]

indeed hard to tell joe.

But it looks naval.

[michaeldr]

Joe,

Many thanks for the picture which I have not seen before – where is it from?

I stand corrected – yes it does indeed look like a naval cap being worn in the trenches

Do you have any theories or can you throw any light on the felt hats shown in my earlier pic?

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Joe Sweeney]

Michael,

The photro actually came out of a a French Magazine--"Militaria". Unfortunately, the picture has no convenient source info like an IWM number.

The author was British. In the article is also another picture of an RMLI.

I believe the author or at least the crew he runs with are out of Southsea so he has two very good sources nearby.

I've seen your phot quite often before. The caption is always different too. Sometimes it says RND personnel and New Zealanders. The one man is obviuosly RND as he looks likew he is wearing a Petty Officers cap (Ah, another type of Headgear worn at Gallipoli).

In the History of the RND and Hoood Battalions the issue of Service Dress happened around Dec 1914 with Naval ratings cap, Before going to the Med. Wolseley Helmets were issued. The helmets seem to be by far the most common headgear along with cap comforters as you point out with RMLI wearing normal SD caps.

1. Could it be a mix of RND and NZ personnel?

2. The Hat SD was discontinued before war -some TF retained it--to be reintroduced in md 1915. Those felt hats don't look like the SD hat (Slouch).However, early in the war a large number of similar hats were gathered by donation--could these be the charitable donation hats?

Joe Sweeney

[michaeldr]

I've seen your phot quite often before. The caption is always different too. Sometimes it says RND personnel and New Zealanders. The one man is obviuosly RND as he looks likew he is wearing a Petty Officers cap (Ah, another type of Headgear worn at Gallipoli).

Joe,

Thanks for the further info above

If we take the two captions together then the pic could be from the first half of May ’15 when the 1st Naval Brigade was at Anzac – e.g. Jerrold’s chapter ‘The Defence of Anzac’ mentions operations in the vicinity of the Otago Battalion. I will leave it to those better qualified than myself to say if the felt hats in question are definitely NZ

I also like your second suggestion re charitable donation hats; this is too is new to me and conjures up a wonderful picture of all sorts of headgear appearing in the firing line

Sticking my neck out again [who said masochist?] I think that you have demoted the naval officer; if I am not mistaken a PO’s cap badge does not have the laurel leaves around the fouled anchor, but only a ring representing rope

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Joe Sweeney]

Michael,

My knowledge of things Naval is not very good> Only assumed Petty Officer do to the lack of those loop things on his sleeve and the OR's P08 equipment (officers commonly wore too)

Joe Sweeney

[DirtyDick]

If the photo (with the suspect silk shirt) is the one you mean, the man to the extreme right is wearing an officers' cap badge; and if you look you will see a shoulder board that looks uncannily like that issued to RN officers (RNVR perhaps?).

Richard