seaforth78 Posted 12 October , 2015 Share Posted 12 October , 2015 I thought I would share these photos of the pre war BO and NO of the 129th Baluchis which I had gotten off ebay a while ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 12 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 12 October , 2015 One more; this time with the names of the IO's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 12 October , 2015 Share Posted 12 October , 2015 Lovely - thanks for sharing. I just tried to PM you, but your inbox is full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 12 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 12 October , 2015 Hi Steven, I'll delete some messages to enable you to PM me. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 12 October , 2015 Share Posted 12 October , 2015 PM sent, ta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 12 October , 2015 Share Posted 12 October , 2015 Double braced Sam Brownes, note. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushfighter Posted 13 October , 2015 Share Posted 13 October , 2015 Shabash Seaforth! H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 13 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 13 October , 2015 Shabash Seaforth! H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 13 October , 2015 Share Posted 13 October , 2015 Wonderful photos. Borton, Dill, Potter and Ussher all fell during the War. The last two died in France in 1914 when the Indian Army was holding the severely depleted British line. Interestingly Borton, Dill and Ussher were all sons of Vicars. Dill's brother, serving in the 69th Punjabis was also killed only 7 months later. They are buried in the same cemetery only yards apart from each other. MG Interestingly the majors all appear with ties and open collars with tabs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 13 October , 2015 Share Posted 13 October , 2015 Not that unusual for the offspring of the Cloth to go into the army, and - of course - the Indian service was less expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 13 October , 2015 Share Posted 13 October , 2015 Double braced Sam Brownes, note. Indeed. Even the mounted Officers (spurs) are wearing double braces with the notable exception of Hay. I note all have swords and no holster for a pistol.So much for the theory that the double braces helped balance the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 13 October , 2015 Share Posted 13 October , 2015 Not that unusual for the offspring of the Cloth to go into the army, and - of course - the Indian service was less expensive. An interesting and very valid point. It made me wonder just how many sons of the clergy were inclined to serve in the (British) Indian Army rather than the British Army The CWG data for Officers where parents are recorded (roughly 60% of each sample) 969 British Officers who served and died with the Indian Army. Of these 75 (7.7%) had a father who was a Reverend. 5,221 British Officers who served and died in 1914-15 (pre Conscription)* . Of these 368 (7.0%) had a father who was a Reverend. So, at the margin there is tangible evidence that the Indian Army had proportionally 10% more Officer sons of vicars than the British Army which bears out the theory. Interestingly when one splits out the Gallipoli data (heavy bias towards the New Armies) the data is 7.7% perhaps suggesting the sons of Clergymen responded to the early call to arms in higher proportions than the pre-war Officers. I might well crunch the data on K1 Officers to see if this is the case. The 129th Baluchis has at least 3 Officers of the 15 in the Photo as sons of Vicars, some 20%. So the 129th Baluchis seem to have more than their fair share. Admittedly a small sample and statistically not robust. MG * Pre-conscription should in theory capture volunteers and therefore be more comparable to the Indian Army. I am not sure if the Indian Army benefited from conscripted Officers. Given the expansion of the Army was almost entirely based on the British Army - an increase of over 1,700 Battalions and the majority of Officers who served would be conscripts despite probably wanting to volunteer - the 1914-15 sub-set seems to be the fairest comparison. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 14 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 14 October , 2015 Indeed. Even the mounted Officers (spurs) are wearing double braces with the notable exception of Hay. I note all have swords and no holster for a pistol.So much for the theory that the double braces helped balance the two. But they did: Here's a lovely photo of a young future Edward 8th with double braces and full Christmas Tree complement when marching out for France in 1914. This picture is from the Christies's auction from 2 years ago which I had placed a bid on this sword but alas, a person with a fatter wallet than mine beat me to it. Now I suppose I have to wait another 20 years for it to appear. But I think the officers in the 129th photo are wearing their swords, sans pistols, is I think for that order of dress. On active service this was the full rig that they would have worn exactly like the Prince of Wales's shown here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 14 October , 2015 Share Posted 14 October , 2015 But they did: Here's a lovely photo of a young future Edward 8th with double braces and full Christmas Tree complement when marching out for France in 1914. This picture is from the Christies's auction from 2 years ago which I had placed a bid on this sword but alas, a person with a fatter wallet than mine beat me to it. Now I suppose I have to wait another 20 years for it to appear. But I think the officers in the 129th photo are wearing their swords, sans pistols, is I think for that order of dress. On active service this was the full rig that they would have worn exactly like the Prince of Wales's shown here. My point is that the double braces were (in theory) designed to balance the sword and revolver as shown in your photo of the Prince in Christmas Tree Order. There are lots of examples of this order in photos..... however the Officers in the OP had double braces but only carried the sword and no revolver. In theory only a single cross-strap/brace would have been required if the 'balancing' argument is correct. I have always thought that switching from a single to a double brace would simply have been too tiresome but have never seen photo of a mounted Officer with double braces. Not even the Cameronians in 1914. The OP picture is the nearest evidence I have seen given many have spurs on as well as a double braces...so doubly interesting. The Sam Browne is a cumbersome piece of kit and walking around with a sword on is particularly impracticable. One of the protagonists of the anti Arme Blanche debate in the inter-war years described swords and lances as 'medieval' weapons It is more interesting that one of the photos shows them wearing cross-belts rather than the Sam-Browne which would make carrying a sword around even more tiresome. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 19 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 19 October , 2015 I have always thought that switching from a single to a double brace would simply have been too tiresome but have never seen photo of a mounted Officer with double braces. Not even the Cameronians in 1914. The OP picture is the nearest evidence I have seen given many have spurs on as well as a double braces...so doubly interesting. Martin G, I don't know if you had seen this photo before but your reference of the Cameronians triggered my memory to produce this. It's a well known photo taken in action of the 1st Cameronians in France 1914 showing Colonel Robertson's hurried talk (back half turned to the camera) with the Adjutant on horseback and other officers while the battle was raging with their swords save for the Colonel. It shows interestingly all the officers with the double brace. I think they alone, having seen plenty of pre-war and post war photos, that the Cameronians were the only Regiment to keep the two braces until 1968. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 19 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 19 October , 2015 Steven, I don't have the history of the 129th, but do they mention the fates of the Indian Officers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 19 October , 2015 Share Posted 19 October , 2015 I'll look this evening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 19 October , 2015 Share Posted 19 October , 2015 Right, here goes. Zaman Khan (Punjabi) was wounded at First Ypres, in October 1914 in the regiment's first action. He seems to have been awarded the MC, if I'm reading the history correctly, and the Order of British India. He was the only native officer from the regiment to get the MC in the war. Karam Dad (Baluchi) was killed on 26th April 1915 Azad Gul (Afridi) was killed 30th November 1914 (promoted Subedar) Azam Khan (Afridi) was wounded on March 1915 and again on 8th September 1915 Ghulam Mohammed (Punjabi) killed 30th November 1914 (attached from the 127th Baluchis) Ahmad Din (Mohmand) killed 20th December 1914 Mala Khan (Afridi) POW 20th december 1914 Saifullah (Mahsud) did not serve with the regiment in the war Amir Khan (Punjabi) wounded and POW 20th December 1914. Sadly, I have no idea which of the three Amir Khans that is! One Amir Khan was recommended for a decoration: "Has done good honest work - as steady as a rock - a man well advanced in years, but with a stout heart.As above, his two platoons were not in the front attacks on the 26th and 30th (October 1914), but his company has invariably set a good example of steadiness to the whole regiment, thanks to this Subedar's example." Why did he not get at least one VC? I'll continue to peruse the book and see if I can find anything else. I say again: brilliant pictures. Wish I'd seen them first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 20 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 20 October , 2015 Hi Steven, Many thanks for your efforts last night for getting out this requested information for me. MUCH appreciated. It was fascinating to put name to face in the photos. They are great photos as you say and I am now having them properly framed. They are all a handsome lot and find both their uniforms and bearing extremely pleasing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 20 October , 2015 Share Posted 20 October , 2015 . I think they alone, having seen plenty of pre-war and post war photos, that the Cameronians were the only Regiment to keep the two braces until 1968. OBLI ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 20 October , 2015 Share Posted 20 October , 2015 The subject of double braces has been discussed at some length before; there are probably several threads about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1914 Posted 9 February , 2016 Share Posted 9 February , 2016 Steven, just came across this via a Martin G reference while looking at major Henry Potter. Just a couple of points of clarification if you have time? Was Zahman Khan wounded on 26th Oct.....you refer to the Bn's first action? Was this more specifically also at Messines? Would you also have Mala Khan, Amir Khan & Zaman Khan's ranks by any chance. Forgive my ignorance but the VCO rank jemadar is roughly equivalent to lieutenant and subedar to 2nd Lt? I realize cavalry ranks in the IA were also termed differently. Many thanks, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 9 February , 2016 Share Posted 9 February , 2016 Subedar is senior to Jemadar, and Subedar Major is senior to all (including God, I suspect). I'm away tonight so will check tomorrow. Actually, I think the ranks are appended to the photo (though difficult to read). Anyway, I'll look tomorrow evening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1914 Posted 9 February , 2016 Share Posted 9 February , 2016 As Baluchis seem to be very much flavour of the day after my Henry Potter post yesterday can anyone give brief details particularly forenames on the following 3 Indian Army officer casualties in 1914: Capt F A Maclean - shown on 1911 photo Lt H V Lewis - ibid Capt R D Davies - not on photo I usually consult the Indian Army List at the British Library but am not in London for some time. I don't think it is online is it? Thanks Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1914 Posted 9 February , 2016 Share Posted 9 February , 2016 Thanks Steven, I got the impression that subedar-major was a senior NCO/Warrant Officer rank rather like a RSM? I could be totally wrong but would appreciate anything additional. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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