9th Northumberland Fusiliers Photo

[rwh]

Hi all

I would be grateful if anyone knows of any of the soldiers or location of the photo below. It's from the collection of the sister of Cpl Fred L Jerram 13178 9th Northumberland Fusiliers who died from a gunshot wound to the thigh 100 years ago today. Fred is not in the photo

The cap badges appear to be Northumberland Fusiliers ones. The man in the middle of the back row may be Cpl/WOII Tom Hornby 13357 as he looks similar to the man in the middle of the following photo also from Fred's sister collection (see my post

Note however he doesn't appear to have any stripes.Tom was a friend of Fred's who kept in contact with Fred's sister after his death, he was in A company around Aug 1915

Richard

[Colin W Taylor]

Richard

The man front and centre, likely the CO, is possibly Lt Col Walter Alfred Vignoles. I have a photocopy of a picture of him somewhere. I'll endeavour to confirm this.

Might it be to record those awarded medals on a specific dated gazette?

Kind regards

Colin

[rwh]

Thanks Colin

Graham Stewart mentioned (in topic http://1914-1918.inv...owtopic=21816

that Tom Hornby (who may be in the photo) was Gazetted with an MM on 6 August 1918

[Colin W Taylor]

Richard

Please see below for a photo of Maj, later Lt Col W A Vignoles DSO who took over command of 9th NF on 23 Nov 1917. I think it likely that it is him front and centre.

The war diary lists a number of men awarded medals in Jun 1918 - Hornby is mentioned as being awarded a Card of Honour - this was presumably upgraded to an MM in the August Gazette. I could not say whether that is him in the group photo without a better picture. Not all members awarded medals at this time (either June or August 1918) would still be with the battalion and this may be of them. Vignoles received a bar to his DSO. On the list is the Acting RSM (A Richardson) who was awarded the DCM - I had previously thought the man in the Sam Browne above the centre officer might be the RSM due to his proximity but have no evidence for this. It might be possible to determine whether any other men on this gazette or list of awards might be present if photos could be found.

The other option might be that this is, as the sign plate says, a picture of the battalion HQ and orderly room staff taken during a quiet period - this would account for the CO, RSM, and a smattering of officers (2IC, Adjutant, A/Adjt) and a number of NCOs and men. Either way it would, presumably, be after Vignoles arrived in Nov 1917.

I would suggest getting a look at a copy of the battalion history, if memory serves, written by Vignoles, which may include further photos of the unit. This should be available through inter library loans or the British Library.

Kind regards

Colin

[rwh]

Thanks Colin

I would agree that the man front & centre in the group photo resembles Lt Col Vignoles as shown in your photo.

I think that Tom Hornby may be the man on the left of the back row in the group photo. There seems to be a resemblance between this man and the man on the right of my other photo (the one showing the 3 seated soldiers). He appears to be wearing what I understand to be staff/colour sergeant insignia on his arm and the Battalion War Diary lists Tom's rank as "a/CSM" in the June award of his Card of Honour.

I had a go on the London Gazette website to try and find a list of those gazetted on the 6 August 1918, but couldn't seem to get anywhere with the search engine

Thanks for the suggestion re the battalion history, my search for these came up with a couple of sources

The first was

Historical Records of the 9th-Service-Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers. 1914-1919. With plates and maps (Histories of the Northumberland Fusiliers. vol. 1.) by Charles Herbert Cooke (Author)

The second was a National Archives set of private papers containing a diary written by LT Col Vignoles when he was in charge of the 9th NF. Hopefully I'll get round to looking at a copy of these sooner or later

Regards

Richard

[quadrangle]

Hi All

  The group photograph appears facing page 99 of the Historical Records of the 9th-Service-Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers. 1914-1919

It is captioned "LIEUT-COL VIGNOLES WITH "ORIGINALS" OF THE BATTALION MAY,1918."

The History is developed from the embarkation roll of "B" company "the quaysiders" these are possibly the "originals" referred to.

This Roll is http://www.newmp.org.uk/memimages/Newcastle upon Tyne/NUT018z Names 9NF.docx 

Regards

Tony

[rwh]

Thanks Tony. I've put in a inter library request for that book, I also note from Amazon that the book contains a photo of the 9th NF at Canford Manor so I assume they were based there at some time? (I have an undated  letter home  from Fred with a lodgings address in nearby Broadstone in which he talks about a return move to Bovington)

 

Thought I'd post a couple more photos containing Fred Jerram . He is 2nd from left rear row in the 238NF photo

 

Regards

Richard

[quadrangle]

Hi Richard

  There is quite a lot of information about early training at Bovington in the first two chapters.

In addition a group photo of officers ( all 33 named in an overlay) , also photo of WO 's and NCO's

at location ( no names), both taken at Cranford Manor.

Also a pic very similar to the one you posted with first uniforms on.

Enjoy the book, I first saw it at Gateshead library. The copy I have was presented to C.S.M George Browell

D.C.M , it has a picture of him with the rugby team , it came with a bonus pack of Christmas re union leaflets

up to 1964, I do not think he missed a reunion.

 Also was a  poem loose in the book of 19 verses by a W.M.B entitled "Vast silence on the Somme". It had been presented to 

Queen Mary in 1952, for which a letter of thanks was sent by Lady Constance Milne Gaskill , "Woman of the bedchamber to

Queen Mary".. I am still looking for the poet.

  I will post some of this material later if golf is off. Perth Radar don't look good.

Cheer 

Tony

[quadrangle]

10 hours ago, quadrangle said:

Hi Richard

  There is quite a lot of information about early training at Bovington in the first two chapters.

In addition a group photo of officers ( all 33 named in an overlay) , also photo of WO 's and NCO's

at location ( no names), both taken at Cranford Manor.

Also a pic very similar to the one you posted with first uniforms on.

Enjoy the book, I first saw it at Gateshead library. The copy I have was presented to C.S.M George Browell

D.C.M , it has a picture of him with the rugby team , it came with a bonus pack of Christmas re union leaflets

up to 1964, I do not think he missed a reunion.

 Also was a  poem loose in the book of 19 verses by a W.M.B entitled "Vast silence on the Somme". It had been presented to 

Queen Mary in 1952, for which a letter of thanks was sent by Lady Constance Milne Gaskill , "Woman of the bedchamber to

Queen Mary".. I am still looking for the poet.

  I will post some of this material later if golf is off. Perth Radar don't look good.

Cheer 

Tony

  Hi again 

  I have been examining the original photograph  that is the basis of this thread.

I believe the aristocratic gentleman first row left, is Standish Robert Gage Prendergast Vereker, 7th Viscount Gort, MC, KStJ (1888–1975) 

 He is one of the " originals" of the 9th Battalion NF. Also featured in the group of officers  at Cranford manor some 4 years earlier.

A lot of information is  available on the internet. He rebuilt Bunratty Castle in Ireland among other things.

At the "Fifty Years After" reunion of the "B" Co 9th Bn in 1964,  he was "Chairman" but unable to attend 

as he was in Canada on business.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standish_Vereker,_7th_Viscount_Gort 

[Graham Stewart]

As Quadrangle states the photo in question, which was taken outside of the Orderly Room, actually appears in the 9th Bn History, but sadly no-one else is named, but I also take it from the caption that these were some of the surviving "original" members of 'B' Company, around which the Battalion History is based. I also have in my collection some rare copies of the "Quaysider" - the organ of 'B' Coy, 9th Bn,N.F. and in the souvenir number of October 1914 there is a nominal roll of all 'B' Company members, who are listed by Platoon, sadly without their regimental numbers.

My copies have been turned into a special booklet - mine belonging to 12222 Pte Ben Burdstall of V Platoon, 'B' Coy, who was an employee of Philipson & Son, Process Engravers of Lisle St, Newcastle. On the back page is special plate engraving, which has the photo's of five of these employees in it, which I'll try and re-produce.

Ben lived at 45 Goldspinklane, Newcastle and survived the War after having been transferred to the 13th Bn, Durham L.I..

[Graham Stewart]

As mentioned in my last post. The lad in the bottom right hand corner was 12221 Pte Frank Ray, also of 'B' Company, 9th Bn.

Edited 8 October , 2016 by Graham Stewart

[rwh]

Hi Graham

 

I have the following in my collection, it's a letter to Fred's mother signed by his fellow stretcher bearers, one of whom is a B Burstall of B Co !

 

Regards

 

Richard

[quadrangle]

Hi Graham

Arthur Porteous Stanley was also an "original" 12233 KIA 7/7/16. 

All the Original OR's with regimental numbers are listed on the embarkation roll of "B" Co that is publish on the internet.

http://www.newmp.org.uk/memimages/Newcastle upon Tyne/NUT018z Names 9NF.docx  it is the same list that appears in the "9th Historical Records."

I have compiled a list of the 34 officers that embarked with the troops  and the companies that they were assigned to . Almost all of them appear with 

names attached in a group  photo taken at Cranford Manor.

By eliminating the twelve that were killed before the photograph was taken and other obvious no-starters , I am zoning in on the front row, the NCO's 

will be more difficult . It seems that facial hair popularity was on the wane as the war progressed.

Can you identify the ranks of the front row please, some are obvious but no to me with limited experience.

This will help.

Ta

Tony

[quadrangle]

Richard

 That is such a great contribution on many levels.

 

A lot of those stretcher bearers were later themselves injured according to my list.

William Crosby 10470    W 3/8/16.

J Hollan            14549    W 7/7/16

R Godfrey         10612   W 26/2/16

A Wakelin          5217     W 26/2/16

28 casualties sustained on that day .., mainly from heavy rifle and machine gun fire.

E H Risley          13268   W 1/8/16   Accidentaly with 10 others when a German  trench mortar detonator exploded.

 

  I will check out the others guys, it's interesting.

 

As my father was also a stretcher bearer for the 9th Bn,  it is also poignant and tells me a lot about the men themselves

and how the  stretcher bearer structure was.

Thanks again

Tony

[quadrangle]

1 hour ago, quadrangle said:

Richard

 That is such a great contribution on many levels.

 

A lot of those stretcher bearers were later themselves injured according to my list.

William Crosby 10470    W 3/8/16.

J Hollan            14549    W 7/7/16

R Godfrey         10612   W 26/2/16

A Wakelin          5217     W 26/2/16

28 casualties sustained on that day .., mainly from heavy rifle and machine gun fire.

E H Risley          13268   W 1/8/16   Accidentaly with 10 others when a German  trench mortar detonator exploded.

 

  I will check out the others guys, it's interesting.

 

As my father was also a stretcher bearer for the 9th Bn,  it is also poignant and tells me a lot about the men themselves

and how the  stretcher bearer structure was.

Thanks again

Tony

  Further to this I have looked up Sgt R F Bell.

He was injured on 14/4/1916, but remained at duty , later to be awarded the MM at a ceremony on 27th July in the field .After which a successful

concert was held.

 

  However Robert Fairley Bell , by then  CSM of "D" Coy  was KIA 17/4/1917 

 

Company Serjeant Major Service No: 14804 Date of Death:17/04/1918 Age: 26 Regiment / Service:Northumberland Fusiliers "D" Coy. 9th Bn. Awards:M M Panel Reference: Panel 19 to 23 and 162. Memorial:TYNE COT MEMORIAL Additional Information:Son of Sarah Elizabeth Bell, of 133, Laurel St., Wallsend-on-Tyne, Northumberland, and the late William Bell; husband of Margaret Jane Bell, of 25, Elton St. East. Wallsend-on-Tyne.

Sad.

Of the  others on your list that I could find, all survived John Snowdon was transferred to the M/Gun Corps , as did John Liddle , Mark Hardisty ,T Watson,and Arthur Wakelin.

 

 

[rwh]

Thanks Tony

 

I did an initial (not fully verified) analysis of the list using MIC's a while ago and came up with the following

Bell 14804

Smith 13322

Snowdon 10440

Hollan 14549

Hardisty 1645

Burstall 12222

Riseley 13268

Anderson 6371

Wakelin 5217

WO329 Medal Roll Entry Pte John Aitchison 10743 9th NF

WO329 Medal Roll Entry Pte John Liddle 18704 9th NF

WO329 Medal Roll Entry Pte John William Dawson 15939 9th NF

WO329 Medal Roll Entry Pte Robert Godfrey 10612 9^th NF

WO 329 Medal Rolls William Crosby 10470 9th NF

 

Leaving the following unassigned to MIC entries:

?Song

Pte Watson 12224 (service no 1222 NA)

Albt Cowling?

Pte G W Discord?

 

I added a Community called "9th Northumberland Fusiliers Medical Staff Aug 1915" on Lives of the First World War as an attempt to make the letter publicly available

 

I also have a letter to Fred's mother from Lt Patrick Kennedy Murphy RAMC M.O attached to the 9th NF. I don't know how long he was the MO for, but if you're interested I can either post the letter here or email it to you

 

 

Richard

[Graham Stewart]

6 hours ago, rwh said:

Thanks Tony

 

I did an initial (not fully verified) analysis of the list using MIC's a while ago and came up with the following

Bell 14804

Smith 13322

Snowdon 10440

Hollan 14549

Hardisty 1645

Burstall 12222

Riseley 13268

Anderson 6371

Wakelin 5217

WO329 Medal Roll Entry Pte John Aitchison 10743 9th NF

WO329 Medal Roll Entry Pte John Liddle 18704 9th NF

WO329 Medal Roll Entry Pte John William Dawson 15939 9th NF

WO329 Medal Roll Entry Pte Robert Godfrey 10612 9^th NF

WO 329 Medal Rolls William Crosby 10470 9th NF

 

Leaving the following unassigned to MIC entries:

?Song

Pte Watson 12224 (service no 1222 NA)

Albt Cowling?

Pte G W Discord?

 

I added a Community called "9th Northumberland Fusiliers Medical Staff Aug 1915" on Lives of the First World War as an attempt to make the letter publicly available

 

I also have a letter to Fred's mother from Lt Patrick Kennedy Murphy RAMC M.O attached to the 9th NF. I don't know how long he was the MO for, but if you're interested I can either post the letter here or email it to you

 

 

Richard

Hi Richard - What a lovely letter and so well preserved. Of the above you're looking at 12227 Pte Herbert Cowling, V Pltn, 'B' Coy, 9th Bn, who was later transferred to the Royal Flying Corps(317182) and later commissioned into the Royal Air Force.

12224 Pte Thomas Watson, V Pltn, 'B' Coy, 9th Bn - later posted to the 36th Bn

16445 Pte Mark Hardisty - 'B' Coy, 9th Bn.

With just one that I can't make out at all.

[quadrangle]

Hi Richard

   Could you post the letter please I think it of interest to all, concerning the the initial photo of this thread, the "History of the 9th"

reveals where it was taken, however I will leave  you to have the pleasure of discovering  that when your book arrives !!

Graham has done a great job in  tracking down some of the stretcher bearers , perhaps one of the missing could be G W Dixon

who was with the RAMC.?

[rwh]

Thanks for the above. Here is the letter from Lt Murphy

 

[quadrangle]

Thanks Richard

  The letter is a touching, real event in time,  removed from the formality of records we search and sometimes carelessly discuss.

Regards

Tony

 

[Guest]

Hello I have just happened upon this post. My Great Grandfather is in the photo on your original thread. Edward O'Halleron is 2nd from the left at the back. We have the copy of the book which was presented to him. 

[Guest]

Thank you for posting the photos. If have any more I'd love to see them. Btw my Grandma was named after Bovington Camp. Her name was Beatrice Bovington O'Halleron.

Edited 5 August , 2017 by Guest
Realised I'd duplicated my previous post

[rwh]

Thanks for that, I guess that's Sgt Edward O'Halleron (listed as O'Halloran on the medal index card) 13138

 

No more photos unfortunately, however I do have a letter Fred sent home when he was lodging in Broadstone. As you can see from the following snippet not everyone held Bovington in great affection!

 

 

Richard

Edited 6 August , 2017 by rwh
remove emoji

[Mark Salkeld]

On 09/10/2016 at 01:20, quadrangle said:

  Further to this I have looked up Sgt R F Bell.

He was injured on 14/4/1916, but remained at duty , later to be awarded the MM at a ceremony on 27th July in the field .After which a successful

concert was held.

 

  However Robert Fairley Bell , by then  CSM of "D" Coy  was KIA 17/4/1917 

 

Company Serjeant Major Service No: 14804 Date of Death:17/04/1918 Age: 26 Regiment / Service:Northumberland Fusiliers "D" Coy. 9th Bn. Awards:M M Panel Reference: Panel 19 to 23 and 162. Memorial:TYNE COT MEMORIAL Additional Information:Son of Sarah Elizabeth Bell, of 133, Laurel St., Wallsend-on-Tyne, Northumberland, and the late William Bell; husband of Margaret Jane Bell, of 25, Elton St. East. Wallsend-on-Tyne.

Sad.

Of the  others on your list that I could find, all survived John Snowdon was transferred to the M/Gun Corps , as did John Liddle , Mark Hardisty ,T Watson,and Arthur Wakelin.

 

 

 

Hi

 

Robert Fairley Bell was my 2nd Great Uncle, brother-in-law of my Great Grandfather, Pte. Robert Turnbull 23/459, of whom I've inquired about on this forum previously.  For your interest, I've attached a photograph of Robert Fairley Bell taken on the 23rd of October 1914.  He is in the back row, thrid from the left.

 

Does anyone know the approximate month and year Sgt. Bell enlisted?

 

Kind regards

 

Mark

[Graham Stewart]

Mark - Lovely photo and thanks for sharing it with us - always nice to see the lads as they actually were and I believe it was taken in the Wareham area.

 

14804 Lance Sgt Robert Fairley Bell, of 'D' Company, 9th Bn, Northumberland Fusiliers, late of 25 Elton St East, Wallsend enlisted late August early September 1914, but I can't give you an exact date. He entered France on the 15th July 1915 and became an acting Company Sergeant Major. He was Gazetted with the Military Medal on the 23rd August 1916 and was killed on the 17th April 1918 and is commemorated on Tyne Cot Memorial. Prior to this he had been known to have been wounded around the 14th April 1916.