Who is earliest casualty buried in England?

[phil1963]

I was in Higham churchyard in Kent yesterday and found the grave of the below:

E. JONES

Rank:Private Service No:6014 Date of Death:30/08/1914 Age:35 Regiment/Service: Queen's Own (Royal West Kent Regiment)

Cemetery: HIGHAM (ST. MARY) CHURCHYARD

Additional Information:Husband of Florence Jones, of 3, Market St., Dover. This seems quite an early death; perhaps he was taken ill before reaching France? Does anyone know how he died AND who is the earliest casualty to be buried in England who DID see service abroad???

[johnboy]

who is the earliest casualty to be buried in England who DID see service abroad???

That might be a hard one to find as nok would have had to pay for the body to brought back.

[HarryBrook]

The Register of Soldiers' Effects states that he died at Chattenden, Kent, had enlisted at Woolwich on 13.11.00, and was labourer. He is listed as 3rd Battalion.

[clive_hughes]

Depends what you mean by casualty: according to Geoff's Search Engine there are 3 war graves in the UK dated 4th August 1914, one Naval, one R.Marine, and one soldier (plus another buried abroad). But none were action casualties.

The sinking of HMS Amphion on 6th August did result in a large casualty list, but I'm uncertain if any of the resulting bodies were buried in the UK.

Clive

[SiegeGunner]

who is the earliest casualty to be buried in England who DID see service abroad???

That might be a hard one to find as nok would have had to pay for the body to brought back.

Not if he was wounded abroad or offshore and returned to Britain for treatment before dying.

[Stebie9173]

Not being scientific, but I would image General Sir James Grierson would have been one of the earliest:

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/665545/GRIERSON,%20Sir%20JAMES%20MONCRIEFF

Steve.

[Guest]

122 military men pre-deceased the OP subject in the UK between 4th-29th Aug 1914 (inclusive).

47 military men pre-deceased Grierson between 4th-16th Aug 1914 (inclusive)

I suspect most, if not all were non-battle casualties.Given the sheer number of men mobilizing it was inevitable that some men would simply die in accidents before disembarking. There were a few suicides too. Some of the published regimental histories make note of their earliest battle casualties, but the focus naturally tends to be on men killed in action in France and Belgium.

Generating a list of fatalities with CWGC or Geoff's Excellent Search Engine is a simple task. If one is looking for a France or Flanders based battle casualty, evacuated to the UK and died of wounds I suspect it will be a rather more difficult task to establish. Then there is the delicate task of establishing if it was accidental or due to enemy action which makes it more difficult again.

The first men of the BEF were already in France when war was declared and the BEF started disembarking en masse on 12th Aug, so, realistically one needs to look at the period after this date and probably one or two days before Mons when the first contacts were made with the Germans. I suspect the first DOW in the UK (military) would be soon after 26th Aug as the logistics of evacuation would have taken at least 2 days. Added to that if a man was critically wounded, it is more likely he was treated in France than add to the risks by evacuating him so there might be a case for an even later date. My speculation.

MG

[ianjonesncl]

Doing a search on the CWGC database for 6th August shows that the casualties recorded from HMS Amphion were 148 casualties (downloaded results and there are about 5 different ways HMS Amphion is recorded.

Of the 148 casualties, the majority are recorded on the Plymouth Naval Memorial, 3 on Chatham Naval Memorial, 1 on Portsmouth Naval Memorial.

The following are buried in Shotley (St Mary) Churchyard:

COPLAND HENRY H 06/08/1914 Leading Stoker Royal Navy DICK W 06/08/1914 Stoker 2nd Class Royal Navy FOSTER J 06/08/1914 Stoker 1st Class Royal Navy MARTIN ALBERT A 26 06/08/1914 Stoker 1st Class Royal Navy BROWN-KING JOHN LINDSAY McCUTCHEON J L M 23 23/08/1914 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry

[ss002d6252]

The earliest man I could see as DOW in the UK on SDGW was 30 Aug 1914 (from a very quick look).

#6831 Chilvers.

Craig

[gem22]

Cpl Charles Pettit, Norfolk Regt, was seriously wounded at the Battle of Mons and taken prisoner. Later repatriated to England and died of wounds in 1918. Buried in Littleport New Cemetery, Cambs.

Garth

[Derek Black]

If you're broadening your scope to include the other home nations, then it wasn't til October 19th the first battle casualty of the 1st Black Watch died of wounds while back in the UK.

Even though the btn disembarked on the 13th of August, it was over two months between their landing on the continent and the circumstances of a man being returned wounded, who subsequently died of those wounds, to ocurr.

17 year old William Carr
(Alias Anderson, he enlisted aged 15 in 1912)

[Muerrisch]

The first men of the BEF were already in France when war was declared .................

MG

Martin, what is your source for this please? And who/what were they, apart from Embassy and Military Liaison officers, batmen etc?

[Sue Light]

Not being scientific, but I would image General Sir James Grierson would have been one of the earliest:

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/665545/GRIERSON,%20Sir%20JAMES%20MONCRIEFF

Steve.

Grierson was definitely one who got to France and was later brought home. He crossed to France on the night of the 14th August 1914 on the Comrie Castle in the company of General Haig,arriving in Havre on the 15th, and dying two days later of natural causes.

Sue

[Guest]

Martin, what is your source for this please? And who/what were they, apart from Embassy and Military Liaison officers, batmen etc?

Those very Officers and men. Small numbers. The General Staff 1914 Star medal roll should confirm this. I looked into this after finding a Royal Sussex Regt man with a very early date (5th Aug). There is an old thread somewhere..... My conclusions were that the precautionary period wasn't completely wasted and some Staff Officers and their staff, batmen etc made it across the channel. If memory serves Spears/Spiers 11th Hussars was one (he of 'Liaison' 1914' fame). Edit: 'Liaison 1914' records he crossed on 27th July 1914 but the General Staff 1914 Medal roll shows 5th Aug 1914, presumably because that was the start date for the medal. There is zero doubt he was in France before the date in the medal roll.

It of course does not necessarily follow that early disembarkation meant early contact with the German Armies. I was simply making the point that the mass disembarkation were not the first men to arrive. MG

Edit 1. Col H W Perry AOC for example has disembarkation date of 5th Aug 1914. I have a spreadsheet with every Staff Officer and their dates which I will mine tomorrow. MG

Edit 2. Col S Westcott CMG, staff Officer No. 2 Base Depot disembarked 5th Aug 1914.

Edit 3. Capt Dyer, Queens Regt. Ditto. Etc.

Edit 4. Brig Gen A G Hunter Weston CB DSO disembarked 4th Aug 1914.

Edit 5: Capt Cuffe RMLI disembarked 4th Aug 1914

Edit 6: Maj G B Kensington RE Railway Transport Establishment disembarked 4th Aug 14

Edit 7: Maj D A Chambers Int Corps disembarked 5th Aug 14

Capt G M Goldsmith Int Corps disembarked 27th Jul 14

2 Lt J M Smith Int Corps disembarked 4th Aug 14. DOW 8th Sep 14.

Capt A McLean Censors disembarked 5th Aug 14.

Ten should be enough to illustrate the point that Officers (and their staff) were in France very early on and some appear to have been there prior to the declaration of war (11 pm on 4th Aug 14)

[RussT]

s

The earliest man I could see as DOW in the UK on SDGW was 30 Aug 1914 (from a very quick look).

#6831 Chilvers.

Craig

A check in CWGC shows that 6831 J Chilvers, 1/East Surrey Rgt died on 27/10/1914, buried Netley Military Cemetery. His Soldiers Effects Record (SER) gives this same date of death, so it looks like SDGW is in error.

SDGW does not return any men who Died of Wounds at Home in August 1914

Looking at Sept 1914, there are 21 records. The earliest is 1st September 1914 for S/40684 William King, 8/Seaforth Highlanders. That service number and battalion does not look correct, and sure enough CWGC and his SER show a date of death of 01/09/1917. So another error in SDGW.

The next earliest candidate in SDGW who is recorded as DoW is 24161 Pnr John Frederick Dawes, 4th Signal Company, RE who died of wounds on 5th September 1914. This date is confirmed in CWGC (buried Portsmouth Military Cemetery) and his SER (£5 War Gratuity). His MIC shows "died" and he entered France on 22/08/1914.

So Dawes looks like the earliest Army death from action who is buried at home.

Russ

[RussT]

Further to the above, the next after Dawes is Bdr 70734 James Edward Himsworth 9th Bty RFA, DoW on 06/09/1914, buried Cambridge City Cemetery. His MIC states DoW and he entered France on 16/08/1914.

Russ

[bootneck]

Just for the record L/6831 Pte John Chilvers, 1st Bn ESR, disembarked 4 September 1914 was wounded on 13 October and died of wounds on 27 October 1914.

Bootneck

[Old Owl]

Lieutenant Alan Randall Aufrere Leggett, 1st Bn North Staffordshire Regt., was killed in action in France on 30/10/14 and now lies in the churchyard at Cheriton (St Martin), Kent.

I think that this fits the original question?

[phil1963]

Thanks for this info - I did not know what I would start!!!

[Muerrisch]

Those very Officers and men. Small numbers. The General Staff 1914 Star medal roll should confirm this. I looked into this after finding a Royal Sussex Regt man with a very early date (5th Aug). There is an old thread somewhere..... My conclusions were that the precautionary period wasn't completely wasted and some Staff Officers and their staff, batmen etc made it across the channel. If memory serves Spears/Spiers 11th Hussars was one (he of 'Liaison' 1914' fame). Edit: 'Liaison 1914' records he crossed on 27th July 1914 but the General Staff 1914 Medal roll shows 5th Aug 1914, presumably because that was the start date for the medal. There is zero doubt he was in France before the date in the medal roll.

It of course does not necessarily follow that early disembarkation meant early contact with the German Armies. I was simply making the point that the mass disembarkation were not the first men to arrive. MG

Edit 1. Col H W Perry AOC for example has disembarkation date of 5th Aug 1914. I have a spreadsheet with every Staff Officer and their dates which I will mine tomorrow. MG

Edit 2. Col S Westcott CMG, staff Officer No. 2 Base Depot disembarked 5th Aug 1914.

Edit 3. Capt Dyer, Queens Regt. Ditto. Etc.

Edit 4. Brig Gen A G Hunter Weston CB DSO disembarked 4th Aug 1914.

Edit 5: Capt Cuffe RMLI disembarked 4th Aug 1914

Edit 6: Maj G B Kensington RE Railway Transport Establishment disembarked 4th Aug 14

Edit 7: Maj D A Chambers Int Corps disembarked 5th Aug 14

Capt G M Goldsmith Int Corps disembarked 27th Jul 14

2 Lt J M Smith Int Corps disembarked 4th Aug 14. DOW 8th Sep 14.

Capt A McLean Censors disembarked 5th Aug 14.

Ten should be enough to illustrate the point that Officers (and their staff) were in France very early on and some appear to have been there prior to the declaration of war (11 pm on 4th Aug 14)

Martin, many thanks, I had covered similar ground previously and concluded:

very low numbers [more would be very provocative of course]

relevant expertises,

very very few before 4 August

all officers as far as I know.

One wonders if they were French speakers [as trained and examined by the army] and annotated in the Army List as 'L' or' l', and/ or did the French provide each with an interpreter-cum-guide?

Schoolboy French might well be inadequate. GB Kensington, for example, was not a linguist.

[Guest]

Martin, many thanks, I had covered similar ground previously and concluded:

very low numbers [more would be very provocative of course]

relevant expertises,

very very few before 4 August

all officers as far as I know.

One wonders if they were French speakers [as trained and examined by the army] and annotated in the Army List as 'L' or' l', and/ or did the French provide each with an interpreter-cum-guide?

Schoolboy French might well be inadequate. GB Kensington, for example, was not a linguist.

There is a possibility that the 4th was a typo for 14th and 5th a typo for 15th in every case. I struggle to believe Hunter-Weston was off the boat before the declaration of war. That said, logistics (there are more in the ASC). intelligence, liaision and leadership are exactly the people one might expect to get there early. Given Wilson already had his secret plans for cooperating with the French in the event of a continental conflict dating back some years (1911?) it would be hardly surprising that some Officers went across the channel during the precautionary period. If memory serves the precautionary peiod started on 29th, some seven days before the declaration late on 4th Aug. As you know most Battalions ahd done much of the hard work for mobilization during this period. If I recall correctly parts of the RN were recalled prior to the declaration of war. Spears' trip had been pre-arranged and was a happy coincidence, so arguably doesn't count. He definitely went on his own but I would expect all the other Officers in such critical roles to have small staff with them and batmen. They of course will not appear on the General Staff Officers roll. I have not yet found a General Staff roll for ORs

Interestingly the General Staff medal roll (1914 star) has 750 names and roughly 40% don't have the disembarkation date recorded. Separately 90% of the Railway Transport Establishment roll has no recorded date, showing everyone having disembarked before 23rd Nov 1914. If they all had batmen, that means at least 750 ORs on the Staff, or close to a Battalion's worth of men, most of who would have been in France quite early. It raises the question if an OR on the Staff was wounded very early on, evacuated and died, where would this be recorded other than in the SDGW or CWGC data. No war diaries would likely capture these men.

Edit. One other general though. Having transcribed a few medal rolls and cross-referenced to SDGW, CWGC and other publications - medal rolls, published histories and diaries etc. , the term 'Died' was sometimes used for 'Died of Wounds'. I have seen a few examples of men shown as 'died' who in fact died of wounds. The 1914 Star roll for Officers (over 8,000 names) has a number of these. It follows that a search filter only using 'Died of Wounds' as the key phrase might not capture all. I think it will be very difficult to have a high degree of confidence in the claims for first man to died in UK from wounds suffered in F&F without a very large amount of supplementary research.

165 serving military men died in the UK between 4th August and 5th Sep (exclusive) - the date of RussT's man Spr Dawes. To be certain, the men who were recorded as 'died' would have to be researched to ensure the had not died of wounds.

[Old Tom]

A RFC Officer and his mechanic were killed soon after taking off from Netheravon to fly France. I suppose accidents in England don't count.

Old Tom

[johnboy]

A RFC Officer and his mechanic were killed soon after taking off from Netheravon to fly France. I suppose accidents in England don't count.

Old Tom

Would fit the thread title nicely. if you give the date!

Who is earliest casualty buried in England?

[Moonraker]

Second Lieutenant Robert Skene of Number 3 Squadron was the first RFC officer to lose his life in the war when he took off from Netheravon to fly to France on August 12, 1914, dying after his Blériot hit trees. His passenger, Keith Barlow, also died.

déjà vu

or should that be déjà écrit?

Another earlier discussion.

Moonraker

[Nick1914]

Attached is a PDF from my own dbase of 1914 Casualties showing worldwide British Army officer casualties(fatal & non-fatal) upto & including 22nd August(ie pre Mons).

Also included are some details such as age (where known) plus some categorisation/units etc and burial details

Hope this helps.....glad to be a contributor to the Forum at last & not just a "questioner"!

Best Nick

Early British Army Casualties 1914.pdf