Can you help with information on this young soldier

[FROGSMILE]

As an officer, would he have worn a shoulder title?

I was (appallingly) thinking about this in bed last night (the Horror) and it struck me that the absence of a collar "T" might suggest he's not from one of the London battalions (OK, the T might be missing late-war, but it's a thought), so I'd go with the 60th Rifles (KRRC). I confess I didn't realise RB officers didn't wear the boss.

You are right that up to 1916 and conscription the T was usually (but not always) worn on the collar of London Regt officers.

The RB did wear the cord boss on the field service cap, just as the KRRC did, but they did not wear it on the SD cap.

Officers of regiments that did not wear collar badges, such as the RB and the KRRC, generally wore shoulder titles. You will see this in the KRRC photo that I linked. This was less common in London Regiment and other TF battalions, because the titles were so long and complex.

For the foregoing reasons it is most likely that the subject of this thread is indeed a KRRC officer.

[MBrockway]

As an officer, would he have worn a shoulder title?

I was (appallingly) thinking about this in bed last night (the Horror) and it struck me that the absence of a collar "T" might suggest he's not from one of the London battalions (OK, the T might be missing late-war, but it's a thought), so I'd go with the 60th Rifles (KRRC). I confess I didn't realise RB officers didn't wear the boss.

A quick skim through my KRRC officers photos shows about 1 in 4 officers wearing shoulder titles, mostly (but not always) the more junior officers, so chances are there would be a blank on this photo were it to be extended

RB officers' cap badges gives me a chance to post the photos of Evelyn Southwell and Malcolm White from Andy's excellent Two Men - One Memorial, The Story of two Shrewsbury Schoolteachers thread

[MBrockway]

You are right that up to 1916 and conscription the T was usually (but not always) worn on the collar of London Regt officers.

..

..

I have a vague recollection also that officers in the OTC cadets wore a 'C' on their collars?? Can you confirm?

If so, that goes against the cadet scenario, whether Dulwich College OTC, KRRC 1st Cadet Battalion or the CLB cadets.

[FROGSMILE]

I have a vague recollection also that officers in the OTC cadets wore a 'C' on their collars?? Can you confirm?

If so, that goes against the cadet scenario, whether Dulwich College OTC, KRRC 1st Cadet Battalion or the CLB cadets.

Yes, dress regulations required a 'C' , of the same size as the TF 'T', to be worn in bronze or black below collar badges where the latter are worn. Cadet RB or KRRC would likely have worn a slightly larger C with the shoulder title, as STs were also caveated with a 'C'. All that said, just how closely this was followed by all OTC units is a subject in itself.

[MBrockway]

Yes, dress regulations required a 'C' , of the same size as the TF 'T', to be worn in bronze or black below collar badges where the latter are worn. Cadet RB or KRRC would likely have worn a slightly larger C with the shoulder title, as STs were also caveated with a 'C'. All that said, just how closely this was followed by all OTC units is a subject in itself.

Excellent - chapter and verse as always.

I have a good few photos of CLB cadets and KRRC 1st Cadet Battalion members, but all are either OR's or CLB Cadet officers in their pre-khaki blue uniform.

For general interest here's the 1st Cadet Battalion, KRRC shoulder title that you mention:

[Picture harvested from a fleaBay lot in 2010, so I make no claims about its authenticity, but the design is correct]

[FROGSMILE]

Excellent - chapter and verse as always.

I have a good few photos of CLB cadets and KRRC 1st Cadet Battalion members, but all are either OR's or CLB Cadet officers in their pre-khaki blue uniform.

For general interest here's the 1st Cadet Battalion, KRRC shoulder title that you mention:

KRRC - 1st Cadet Btn - shoulder title eBay.jpg

[Harvested from fleaBay in 2010, so I make no claims about its authenticity, but the design is correct]

Yes, it looks authentic enough to me, although I do not know the degree to which STs have been reproduced.

[JMB1943]

Blackblue----well done !!!

Regards,

JMB

[Steven Broomfield]

Just checked the Extensive Library for a photo of Woolley, VC (16th London) and see that he is wearing collar dogs in the photos, so although he has a cord boss cap badge, it does discount the Queen's Westminsters from the mix.

[MBrockway]

I've also been digging in my library - officers of the Queen Victoria's Rifles (9th London) had the cord boss badge, but, like the 16th Londons, also had regimental collar dogs, so the QVRs can also be discounted from the mix.

[FROGSMILE]

There were very few units other than the two original rifle regiments, the RB and the KRRC, that did not wear collar badges. Even the Cameronians (SR) and RIR had collar badges.

[Blackblue]

So....any thoughts on the son of Mrs Mills' sister Ada - Alfred John Bailey and 17th KRRC?

Name: Alfred John Bailey

Rank: Second Lieutenant

Death: 03/09/1916

Age: 19

Regiment/Service: King's Royal Rifle Corps 17th Bn.

Grave Reference: II. A. 15.

Cemetery: HAMEL MILITARY CEMETERY, BEAUMONT-HAMEL

Additional Information: Son of Alfred James and Ada Emmeline Bailey, of 120, Grove Lane, Camberwell, London.

Rgds

Tim D

[Blackblue]

Looks like this is his school. May be worth touching base with the History Department as he appears to have written letters to the school during the war according to this article. They appear to have a significant interest in the Great War.

http://www.wilsonsschool.sutton.sch.uk/resources/Wilson's-and-the-First-World-War.pdf

office@wilsonsschool.sutton.sch.uk

Rgds

Tim D

[alantaylor2004@hotmail.com]

Hi again,

Thanks for all the information, Its amazing what has come out of this. I have taken another picture to try and get every detail and it may help?

Cheers,

Alan

[MBrockway]

Looks like this is his school. May be worth touching base with the History Department as he appears to have written letters to the school during the war according to this article. They appear to have a significant interest in the Great War.

http://www.wilsonsschool.sutton.sch.uk/resources/Wilson's-and-the-First-World-War.pdf

office@wilsonsschool.sutton.sch.uk

Rgds

Tim D

Tim,

Bailey has an obituary in the KRRC Chronicle but unfortunately no picture. Rather busy this weekend, but will try and transcribe it when I can.

Mark

[clk]

Alan,

Is it my eyes, or is there some feint writing towards the bottom right hand corner of the photo? Is the studio named on the back?

Regards

Chris

[alantaylor2004@hotmail.com]

Hi again,

I am unable to read what it says, it could be Clacton but not know. There is nothing else on the picture no mention of the studio and you have all that's there.

Cheers,

Alan

[Blackblue]

Looks like a signature to me? Any chance if a n enlargement of the pencil markings at the lower end of the Sam Browne?

Rgds

Tim D

[FROGSMILE]

So....any thoughts on the son of Mrs Mills' sister Ada - Alfred John Bailey and 17th KRRC?

Name: Alfred John Bailey

Rank: Second Lieutenant

Death: 03/09/1916

Age: 19

Regiment/Service: King's Royal Rifle Corps 17th Bn.

Grave Reference: II. A. 15.

Cemetery: HAMEL MILITARY CEMETERY, BEAUMONT-HAMEL

Additional Information: Son of Alfred James and Ada Emmeline Bailey, of 120, Grove Lane, Camberwell, London.

Rgds

Tim D

I think there's a good chance that you have him. Looks as if the poor sod copped it in the early days of the Jul 1916 Somme offensive. Looking at his photo I can just imagine him with whistle in one hand and Webley in the other waiting to 'go over the top'.

[Blackblue]

And I was only at Hamel a few weeks ago.....bummer.....

TD

[alantaylor2004@hotmail.com]

Hi again,

If you make it any bigger its then just a blur, this is the best it gets.

Cheers,

Alan

[MBrockway]

Bailey's obituary from the 1916 KRRC Chronicle:

2ND Lieut. A. J. BAILEY
The only son of Mr. and Mrs. A. J. Bailey, of Grove Lane, Camberwell, and a fine athlete at his school. Bailey received his commission on his 18th birthday, and served some time with the 5th Battalion at Sheerness. On reaching the age of 19, he proceeded to France with the 17th Battalion March, 1916, and was killed by a shell on September 3rd whilst gallantly leading his men in an attack on the German lines.

His Commanding Officer writes:- "We had not a more promising officer in the Battalion."
[source: KRRC Chronicle 1916 p.344]

No picture unfortunately.

Bailey joined D Company, 17th (Service) Battalion, KRRC (British Empire League) on 07 Mar 1916. 17/KRRC entrained for Southhampton that same day and landed at Havre the following day.

17/KRRC's War Diary reports that having been initially posted Missing from the action at BEAUMONT HAMEL, he was reported Killed when his body was recovered on 06 Sep.

I can't find him in my hard copy of SDGW.

[Drew-1918]

Thought I'd try and make the signatures a bit more legible. Didn't have much success, but posting anyway:

[FROGSMILE]

Bailey's obituary from the 1916 KRRC Chronicle:

2ND Lieut. A. J. BAILEY

The only son of Mr. and Mrs. A. J. Bailey, of Grove Lane, Camberwell, and a fine athlete at his school. Bailey received his commission on his 18th birthday, and served some time with the 5th Battalion at Sheerness. On reaching the age of 19, he proceeded to France with the 17th Battalion March, 1916, and was killed by a shell on September 3rd whilst gallantly leading his men in an attack on the German lines.

His Commanding Officer writes:- "We had not a more promising officer in the Battalion."

[source: KRRC Chronicle 1916 p.344]

No picture unfortunately.

Bailey joined D Company, 17th (Service) Battalion, KRRC (British Empire League) on 07 Mar 1916. 17/KRRC entrained for Southhampton that same day and landed at Havre the following day.

17/KRRC's War Diary reports that having been initially posted Missing from the action at BEAUMONT HAMEL, he was reported Killed when his body was recovered on 06 Sep.

I can't find him in my hard copy of SDGW.

A rather poignant example of the so many 'only sons' that were lost. If it is him, as seems likely, it's rather tragic that we cannot prove it and use a postcard bought at a car boot sale to put a face to the other details in his record.

[Blackblue]

Agreed. There is minimal information on him in the tree on Ancestry and no link to his death or military service...so they are probably not aware he even died. I'll PM them anyway. Maybe the school has something more.

Planning to contact the school Alan? I'm sure it would be of significant interest to them.

Tim D

[MBrockway]

In Firefox, I had a bit of trouble with Tim's link to the school info, so here's another version:

http://www.wilsonsschool.sutton.sch.uk/resources/Wilson%27s-and-the-First-World-War.pdf