trajan Posted 25 April , 2015 Share Posted 25 April , 2015 I was hoping that the original but now-locked thread at: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=178014would be unlocked by now so that I could thank Khaki and LF for their greatly appreciated comments and also LF's photographs at the end, which cleared up the issue of mounting Arisaka bayonets. But that has not been the case, so partly to say 'Thanks Khaki and LF'! but also to put forward a poser - I don't think I need to stress that I am not a rifle man? But I do have one Naval marked P.1888, and so wonder what that was used on (yes, I basically know, but...), and which leads me to these photographs, taken for reference purposes from: https://forums.undeadlabs.com/threads/100-years-ago-today-a-chronological-catalogue-of-the-tragedy-of-the-first-world-war.44461/page-8 Allegedly the RND and/or Marines in 1914 - so, what rifles are they using please? Thanks in advance! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 25 April , 2015 Share Posted 25 April , 2015 All the ones I can positively ID (the majority) are Charger Loading Lee Enfields. The main identifying feature (the charger bridge) is not visible on most on the left however it is on the rifles in the foreground on the right hand picture. Also, the CLLE had an adjustable foresight fitted and so protective "ears" were required which were not fitted on the MLE/MLM which had the sight block braised in place. These are prominent and visible on most of the rifles here including the left and right pictures. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 25 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 25 April , 2015 Thanks! Much appreciated! I had a vague idea what they were but nice to have a proper ID. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 26 April , 2015 Share Posted 26 April , 2015 I was hoping that the original but now-locked thread at: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=178014would be unlocked by now so that I could thank Khaki and LF for their greatly appreciated comments and also LF's photographs at the end, which cleared up the issue of mounting Arisaka bayonets. But that has not been the case, so partly to say 'Thanks Khaki and LF'! but also to put forward a poser - I don't think I need to stress that I am not a rifle man? But I do have one Naval marked P.1888, and so wonder what that was used on (yes, I basically know, but...), and which leads me to these photographs, taken for reference purposes from: https://forums.undeadlabs.com/threads/100-years-ago-today-a-chronological-catalogue-of-the-tragedy-of-the-first-world-war.44461/page-8 Allegedly the RND and/or Marines in 1914 - so, what rifles are they using please? Julian, Thank you for reopening the Thread on the British use of the Japanese Arisaka rifle and bayonet during WW1 as the original Thread was needlessly, senselessly and mindlessly locked. As the posts contained in the original now locked Thread, are not the intellectual or otherwise property of the original poster, and as the O.P. obviously has no further interest in the topic, and for the sake of the continuity of the discussion among those of us who are still interested in the topic, I shall re-post several of the posts made by interested members, which hopefully, none of the posters will find objectionable. I was also able to find some interesting photographs on the Internet which show the British Royal Navy and British Army's use of the Arisaka rifle and bayonet during WW1. Let us now continue to enjoy the topic. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 26 April , 2015 Share Posted 26 April , 2015 Post originally from - Trajan - 24 April 1915. " Found this old thread following up on MAN markings and was simply amazed! Anyone know how long they held on to those Arisaki rifles? Is TonyE's book (post no. 4) still around? " Trajan Post originally from LF -24 April 1915. Trajan, The ' Arisaka ' Bayonet along with the rifle were announced in the List of Changes 17213 dated 24th February 1915. Originally intended for Land use and later also extended for Naval use. The bayonet was declared obsolete in British service in October 1921. Some 150,000 Arisaka rifles and bayonets were originally purchased during 1914/15 with the official approval date of 14th February 1915. The issue was extended to the British Navy on 15th June 1915. 128,000 Arisaka rifles and bayonets were shipped to Russia in 1916. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 26 April , 2015 Share Posted 26 April , 2015 Post originally from LF - 24 April 1915. Trajan, Also, remember the Arisaka rifles referred to in LoC 17213 were in .256 calibre and were both Arisaka Pattern 1900 and Pattern 1907 rifles. Regards, LF Post originally from Trajan - 24 April 1915. My knowledge of rifles and their bayonet lugs is pitiful in the extreme... Don't have any to try them on! So, what is the difference, please, between the Arisaka fitting and any GB rifles? I.E., would an Arisaka bayonet fit onto a a British rifle in current use in the appropriate period? Trajan. Post originally from khaki - 24 April 1915. Posted 24 April 2015 - 02:31 PM Hello Julian, It's a totally different mounting arrangement despite looking similar at first glance, the 07 bayonet ring engages the nose cap 'boss' whilst the pommel locking system slides over and locks over the rear boss underneath. The Arisaka rear boss is too wide to engage the 07 pommel slot and of course the only place for the bayonet ring, which has no where to go, is over the Arisaka barrel ( where it is not intended to be). I did not bother with measurements, but the short answer to your question is, no, either way they don't fit. At this time I do not have an Arisaka bayonet and had to reverse your question, sorry. regards khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 26 April , 2015 Share Posted 26 April , 2015 Trajan, As khaki has said, the answer is no, the Japanese Arisaka bayonet would not fit the standard British WW1 SMLE rifle, however, there was a rare conversion to a number of SMLE rifles which have a modified nosecap converted and fitted with an extended sword bar so as to take the Japanese Arisaka Type 30 bayonet. It is believed that these SMLE conversions were carried out in the Far East ( Indonesia ) to make use of the then abundance of surplus Japanese Arisaka bayonets, with the converted SMLE rifles and their Arisaka bayonets being used to arm troops and police units in the Far East. Ian Skennerton also refers to these converted SMLE rifles fitted with Type 30 Japanese Arisaka bayonets on page 208 of his Lee-Enfield reference book. Attached are 2 photographs of this very rare modified SMLE rifle fitted with an Arisaka Type 30 Bayonet. Regards, LF Details of the converted SMLE nosecap and extended sword bar to take the Arisaka Type 30 Bayonet. LF These images are reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 26 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 26 April , 2015 Thank you for reopening the Thread on the British use of the Japanese Arisaka rifle and bayonet during WW1 as the original Thread was needlessly, senselessly and mindlessly locked.... Let us now continue to enjoy the topic. Thanks LF. I have to agree that it is a tad ridiculous (putting it mildly!) somebody closes a thread without any explanation! And this is the third such thread I have re-opened after being closed by the same poster who apparently does not wish to allow anything at all - dispute or whatever - on threads they originated (and locked threads do get forgotten)... I freely admit that I have learnt so much from all members of GWF and it is always an experience to share - and to be corrected when necessary! - and open discussion is the best way to advance common knowledge... So, let us continue to enjoy the topic - especially as I am slowly learning a wee bit more about the fat end that goes onto the pointy-bits that I collect! On which note I still say my best 'discovery' was those Australian sailors using HQ P.1907's in WW2 which I posted on your: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=185724&hl=jerusalem! Now, though, I will have to keep my eye out for one of those Arisakas... I have only seen one over here in Turkey - and never looked at it that carefully... Next time? Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 26 April , 2015 Share Posted 26 April , 2015 The front cover of the book on the Arisaka Rifle by the late Forum member TonyE, has a nice photograph of British Royal Marines equipped with the Arisaka rifle. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 26 April , 2015 Share Posted 26 April , 2015 Two more photographs previously posted on GWF, showing the British use of the Japanese Arisaka rifle. The first excellent photograph was posted back on 9 March 2007 by GWF member o'neill1881, and shows his Great Grandfather with his British service .256 calibre Arisaka rifle. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 26 April , 2015 Share Posted 26 April , 2015 Another British service Arisaka rifle and bayonet photograph posted by GWF member mikebriggs on 15 October, 2008. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 26 April , 2015 Share Posted 26 April , 2015 Here's mine And just because no one has mentioned it - the design of the Type 30 Arisaka bayonet (esp. the quillon) is thought to have been a major influence on the P1907 design, the trials version was in fact referred to as the "Japanese Pattern" (see Skennerton and Richardson p186) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 26 April , 2015 Share Posted 26 April , 2015 Here's mine arisaka.jpg And just because no one has mentioned it - the design of the Type 30 Arisaka bayonet (esp. the quillon) is thought to have been a major influence on the P1907 design, the trials version was in fact referred to as the "Japanese Pattern" (see Skennerton and Richardson p186) Interesting, in that unlike the British, the Japanese never removed the hooked quillon. Also, having never handled an Arisaka rifle, from the photograph in post #10, the Arisaka rifle looks rather large and heavy, did it compare to the British ' Long Lee ' rifle in size and weight do you know ? Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 26 April , 2015 Share Posted 26 April , 2015 Hello LF Overall weight is similar but the arisaka is about 6" longer khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 26 April , 2015 Share Posted 26 April , 2015 Hello LF Overall weight is similar but the arisaka is about 6" longer khaki I don't think that is correct. I think you are thinking of the SMLE no?(44.5") The MLE (to which LF referred) is about 59.5" long and the Type 30 is about 50.1" The weight depends on loaded or unloaded (10 rnds in the.303) but according to Walters(Mil rifles of the two wars) is 9.5lbs for the MLE and 8.85lbs for the Type 30. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 27 April , 2015 Share Posted 27 April , 2015 I apologize. I did not read LF's post thoroughly. (a failing of mine), I had been thinking of the smle. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 29 April , 2015 Share Posted 29 April , 2015 Two nice picture postcards previously posted on GWF by member Chief Chum on 26th January 2006, showing officers and men of the 2/5th Battalion Suffolk Regiment parading in Peterborough, with the soldiers carrying Arisaka rifles. LF 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 8 October , 2015 Share Posted 8 October , 2015 An excellent detailed photograph of Royal Marines aboard HMS Royal Oak, armed with Arisaka rifles and bayonets. LF IWM These images are reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 8 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 8 October , 2015 Great photograph LF - is there a date for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 20 February , 2016 Share Posted 20 February , 2016 Royal Marines aboard HMS Royal Oak having rifle practice with their ' Arisaka ' rifles. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike_H Posted 20 February , 2016 Share Posted 20 February , 2016 To add to the info available - my Arisaka bayonet, with 'J' Pattern frog manufactured by James Homer, and a close up of the Royal Marines marking on the pommel (not very even even I must admit - perhaps a double tot issued that day!) Bayonet has rack number 12 stamped in the left grip. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 20 February , 2016 Share Posted 20 February , 2016 To add to the info available - my Arisaka bayonet, with 'J' Pattern frog manufactured by James Homer, and a close up of the Royal Marines marking on the pommel (not very even even I must admit - perhaps a double tot issued that day!) Bayonet has rack number 12 stamped in the left grip. Mike Mike, What a superb example ! best I have seen. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 20 February , 2016 Share Posted 20 February , 2016 Hi Mike, Yes, a beauty. What is the serial number on this one, the Japanese one? Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike_H Posted 21 February , 2016 Share Posted 21 February , 2016 Tony The serial number on the pommel is 1553252. Tokyo arsenal mark on blade. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 21 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2016 It is indeed a very nice piece - and that frog looks as if still supple as can be! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now