Irish Language recruitment

[geraint]

Thanks to you all for your comments. A very illuminative thread and if any materials are discovered - a note here would be well appreciated.

Geraint

[Dublin3]

Early in the War the Irish Industrial Development Association condemned the fact that recruitment posters used in Ireland were produced in England. Presumable this meant they were standard posters with little direct reference to Ireland although it could mean that they were just not printed in Ireland. In November 1915 Captain Robert Cedric Kelly, an organizer with the Ministry of Munitions was appointed as head of recruiting n Ireland. Initially he doubled recruiting figures by setting up local voluntary management committees. As most of these were either local politicians and businessmen I think it unlikely that they would have ventured into the Irish language.

[Uncle George]

This thread may not be the best place for this, but I hope people find it interesting:

" ... a recently acquired archive is giving new insight into old dialects - some of which no longer exist. Recorded in a WWI prisoner of war camp on shellac disks, the archive was part of an effort by German linguists to study regional variation in the English language. A report by PRI's The World includes a brief synopsis - and a powerful rendition of a beloved Scottish ballad by a homesick soldier.

Nae mair will our bonnie callants

Merch tae war whan our braggarts crousely craw

Nor wee weans frae pitheid an clachan

Murn the ships sailin doun the Broomielaw

Broken faimilies in launs we've hairriet

Will curse 'Scotlan the Brave' nae mair, nae mair

Black an white ane-til-ither mairriet

Mak the vile barracks o thair maisters bare

Sae come aa ye at hame wi freedom..."

http://www.metafilter.com/86565/Voices-from-WWI-speak-again-in-British-Library

[KGB]

This thread may not be the best place for this, but I hope people find it interesting:

" ... a recently acquired archive is giving new insight into old dialects - some of which no longer exist. Recorded in a WWI prisoner of war camp on shellac disks, the archive was part of an effort by German linguists to study regional variation in the English language. A report by PRI's The World includes a brief synopsis - and a powerful rendition of a beloved Scottish ballad by a homesick soldier.

Nae mair will our bonnie callants

Merch tae war whan our braggarts crousely craw

Nor wee weans frae pitheid an clachan

Murn the ships sailin doun the Broomielaw

Broken faimilies in launs we've hairriet

Will curse 'Scotlan the Brave' nae mair, nae mair

Black an white ane-til-ither mairriet

Mak the vile barracks o thair maisters bare

Sae come aa ye at hame wi freedom..."

http://www.metafilter.com/86565/Voices-from-WWI-speak-again-in-British-Library

Speak English with a Ballymena accent and qualify for a new language, Ulster Scots. Lallans and Ullans are interesting for linguists though!

[clive_hughes]

Thanks all for your extremely informative comments folks. So was there any evidence of the Goidelic and Gaelic languages used for recruitment purposes in both Ireland and Scotland?

Ron - thanks for the poster! I haven't seen that one "Independence (Freedom) calls on it's bravest men" Or "There's ten bob in it if you hit that Range Rover Dai - the one with the Geiriadur Mawr on the passenger seat." Ask Siege Gunner! He'll explain!

Jumping back to post #26, it took me till recently to realise that the slightly curious Welsh words on this poster are actually 2 lines from the Welsh version of "Men of Harlech" (just imagine Ivor Emmanuel warbling at the Zulus, and hum the last 2 lines of the song!).

...Meanwhile, is there any evidence for Scots Gaelic's use in recruitment?

Clive

[Uncle George]

A 2008 Forum discussion about Gaelic speakers is here:

 

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Jumping back to post #26, it took me till recently to realise that the slightly curious Welsh words on this poster are actually 2 lines from the Welsh version of "Men of Harlech" (just imagine Ivor Emmanuel warbling at the Zulus, and hum the last 2 lines of the song!).

...Meanwhile, is there any evidence for Scots Gaelic's use in recruitment?

Clive

Well spotted Clive!

[KGB]

Run rig mor nan Gael, the lowlanders great hatred for Gaelic. The Welsh noose (tied around kids necks for speaking ym gymraig in the playground?

[Scalyback]

Run rig mor nan Gael, the lowlanders great hatred for Gaelic. The Welsh noose (tied around kids necks for speaking ym gymraig in the playground?

Welsh not. May of been associated with a noose around the neck but the "not" is a mainly a device used with in the primary school system at the time, secondary education being in English.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Not heard of a noose. The "Welsh Not " was usually a strip of wood about the size of a ruler and had the words inscribed on it. It had a string knotted at both ends and looped over the wearer's head. It was worn like WW2 evacuees carried their gasmask box around their necks.

When a child was heard speaking Welsh, he was given the WN to wear, and had to wear it until the next child was heard speaking Welsh, when the next child then took over the wearing of the WN. And there was probably a beating involved somewhere, there usually was.

[Scalyback]

There is a Welsh not in the school at St Fagans, museum of Welsh life.

I remember a documentary on S4C about the loss of Welsh language during the great war due to troops mixing with English speakers(I may of mentioned on this thread) have you seen or heard of it Dai?

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

There is a Welsh not in the school at St Fagans, museum of Welsh life.

Lots of images here:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=saint+fagans+welsh+not&biw=1920&bih=923&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMI_fiXi_ObxwIVQgbbCh1SoQPa#tbm=isch&q=welsh+not

I remember a documentary on S4C about the loss of Welsh language during the great war due to troops mixing with English speakers(I may of mentioned on this thread) have you seen or heard of it Dai?

Can't say I recall a specific documentary on that issue, but it did have a detrimental effect on the language for the next 5 decades.

[geraint]

I've re-read this thread, and am resurrecting it and hoping that perhaps a little more information has become available over the last three years.

My grandmother, who died 7 years ago at the age of 103, attended primary school where the Welsh Not was used on a daily basis; predominately amongst the boys. She had no recollection of a girl ever being caned. The boys also knew the score - ensuring that the same three boys ended up with the Not around their necks by 3.29. for those of you unsure as to what the Not was - whoever had it around their necks at the end of the school day 3.30, was publicly whipped.

 

Anyhow - comments on Scots, Welsh, Irish language recruitment are welcome!

[Don]

 

 

 

 

 

 

The poster above has a tiny bit of Gaeilge  in the top left hand corner "ERIN GO BRAGH"

Translated  "Ireland until eternity" or "Ireland until the end (of time)."

[geraint]

Don - I couldn't open it. But it's the sort of info I'm interested in. Thanks.

[monkstown]

I can't open the poster either but 'Erin go bragh' is an Anglicized version of what would be - in Irish - Éire go brách. I don't think any Irish speaker would say 'Erin go bragh' as it is written there ... but the recruiting people might have thought it would appeal to Irish people.

Edited 8 July , 2022 by monkstown

[geraint]

Thanks  monkstown. Its the sort of soft nothingness that could appeal to some. In Wales it would be Wales for Ever Cymru am Byth.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On 08/07/2022 at 18:43, monkstown said:

I can't open the poster either but 'Erin go bragh' is an Anglicized version of what would be - in Irish - Éire go brách. I don't think any Irish speaker would say 'Erin go bragh' as it is written there ... but the recruiting people might have thought it would appeal to Irish people.

I can't open it either.

Wasn't  it something like this?

 

[Jervis]

On 08/07/2022 at 18:43, monkstown said:

I can't open the poster either but 'Erin go bragh' is an Anglicized version of what would be - in Irish - Éire go brách. I don't think any Irish speaker would say 'Erin go bragh' as it is written there ... but the recruiting people might have thought it would appeal to Irish people.

While anglicised (I suspect it is a corruption of Eireann rather than Eire) the slogan was in widespread use in Irish Nationalist circles. Many Irish regiment carried a flag with the slogan & an Irish athlete famously unfurled a flag with the slogan during the Olympics in a political protest.

It’s interesting how the Authorities  embraced and co-opted a Nationalist slogan and linked it with the War.  

 

Edited 10 July , 2022 by Jervis

[Jervis]

This link maybe of interest in relation to a small number of Gaelic speakers from the Unionist volunteers. 

[monkstown]

Da iawn, Dai Bach! Thanks Jervis.

[depaor01]

I suspect this may have been the Erin go Bragh poster...

[RaySearching]

Time for an interval break

 

[geraint]

That's a very interesting link Jervis. The second link at the end of the main was also good - Gaelic speakers on the 1911 census and enlistment.

[Airshipped]

Not to overly complicate things, but don't forget that there was a whole Irish language revival movement underway in the late Victorian and Edwardian period. In that regard quite a number of Irish language speakers were not native speakers.

For example here's Robert Francis Casey, a chap who won the Distinguished Flying Cross (DFC) with the RAF Independent Force in WWI.

In the Irish Census 1901 he doesn't claim any Irish language proficiency:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Antrim_Rural/Ballycraigy/914937/

However, by the time of the Irish Census 1911 he claims that he can (and in all probability can) speak Irish. It's in an area nowadays that's perhaps more associated with Loyalist bonfires, a memorial to Billy Wright etc:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Antrim_Rural/Ballycraigy/106377/

(As an teenager by then Casey would appear to have omitted reference to his Glasgow birthplace).

Obviously the situation is much different further west in Ulster, e.g. I recall a figure of in excess of 10,000 Irish speakers being counted for Co Tyrone in the census, and they would largely have been native language speakers.