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geraint

Irish Language recruitment

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geraint

Thanks all for your extremely informative comments folks. So was there any evidence of the Goidelic and Gaelic languages used for recruitment purposes in both Ireland and Scotland?

Ron - thanks for the poster! I haven't seen that one "Independence (Freedom) calls on it's bravest men" Or "There's ten bob in it if you hit that Range Rover Dai - the one with the Geiriadur Mawr on the passenger seat." Ask Siege Gunner! He'll explain! :thumbsup:

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

p022h2k5.jpg

Spot the spelling mistake in this recruiting poster.

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

Milwr, from that Latin Miles or Knight;)

Yes that's my understanding also.

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geraint

Sir! Sir! I know! Please Sir! Me!

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

Quiet Boy!

Yes I know you know.

Give the other boys a chance...

Whilst we wait - write a poem about Wil , a prisoner in Rhuthun Jail.

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kildaremark

As an aside, my father who served with an Irish speaking battalion (An Chead Cath - First Battalion) in Renmore, Co. Galway in the 1940s. (formerly the Depot of the Connaught Rangers) recalled that some of the men couldn't speak English and joined the army to learn English.

Mark

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KGB

As an aside, my father who served with an Irish speaking battalion (An Chead Cath - First Battalion) in Renmore, Co. Galway in the 1940s. (formerly the Depot of the Connaught Rangers) recalled that some of the men couldn't speak English and joined the army to learn English.

Mark

Finner was usually the Irish speaking battalion, my Dad was with the FCA 1949-52 then regular army 1952-54.

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geraint

Will's locked in Ruthin Prison,

His mind and heart like rock.

His poaching net and shotgun

Put safely under lock.

The rabbits laugh in safety

The pheasants full of joy

It's only Moc the dog who's sad

That Will's been put away.

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depaor01

...sadly while they were away in battle the black and tans were doing the rounds

Oh dear. I'd love you to be able to name an Irish regiment still away in battle while the Black and Tans were here. Did news of the Armistice not get through?

Dave

Dave

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

Will's locked in Ruthin Prison,

His mind and heart like rock.

His poaching net and shotgun

Put safely under lock.

The rabbits laugh in safety

The pheasants full of joy

It's only Moc the dog who's sad

That Will's been put away.

Very good.

All your own work too.

I'd like you to show it to Mr. Hooson, he'll be well impressed!

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Scalyback

Further Welsh question. Is there a known spilt for Welsh speakers and Mono Welsh speakers at that in the Welsh regiments. Guessing RWF most "Welsh" the Welsh in regiment in the middle with SWB given its recruitment area being almost English? How did this affect command and control?

As an aside the RWF used Welsh speakers on the radio nets in Bosnia. No need to use code, only started message with "Fetch Dragon"! To get Welsh speakers on the net.

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bumblingblob

Oh dear. I'd love you to be able to name an Irish regiment still away in battle while the Black and Tans were here. Did news of the Armistice not get through?

Dave

??????? What?

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Derek Black

As an aside the RWF used Welsh speakers on the radio nets in Bosnia. No need to use code, only started message with "Fetch Dragon"! To get Welsh speakers on the net.

You just never know.

I vaguely recall a story about Lloyd George assuming his speaking Welsh to men in the trenches, via a field telephone, wasn't a security risk as the likelyhood of any Germans speaking Welsh was tiny. Sometime after a German prisoner was found to be a Welsh speaker having worked in the mines of Wales before the war.

Apocryphal perhaps?

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Scalyback

I have heard of the Welsh German miner, could be true as other stories of German soldiers mentioning previous employment in the UK so had a anglo-German take on things. However south wales coal miners tended to be English-speaking due to high influx from Ireland and the West country. Possible a slate miner from North Wales but I do believe(Geraint may confirm) they tended to be very Welsh.

The reason the RWF used it in Bosnia was they had a high % of "gog" speakers, even south Welsh speakers at times have trouble with it. Dialects and all that.

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SiegeGunner

Spot the spelling mistake in this recruiting poster.

Y Geiriadur Mawr on my passenger seat says that 'DEWRAF' should be 'DEWRFC' 'cos it didn't become RAF until 1918 ... :whistle:

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

I have heard of the Welsh German miner, could be true as other stories of German soldiers mentioning previous employment in the UK so had a anglo-German take on things. However south wales coal miners tended to be English-speaking due to high influx from Ireland and the West country. Possible a slate miner from North Wales but I do believe(Geraint may confirm) they tended to be very Welsh.

The reason the RWF used it in Bosnia was they had a high % of "gog" speakers, even south Welsh speakers at times have trouble with it. Dialects and all that.

Yes I think the German miner story is just that.

With regards to the South Wales miner, in 1911, just over 30% of Glamorganshire's population were Welsh speaking, so not a rare beast by any stretch of the imagination.

I saw a clip of film from Bosnia where the "Fetch" code was "Tafod y Ddraig" (Dragon's Tongue). And now you mention it, yes, I think he was a Gog.

Y Geiriadur Mawr on my passenger seat says that 'DEWRAF' should be 'DEWRFC' 'cos it didn't become RAF until 1918 ... :whistle:

Ho Ho!

It's midnight and time's up.

The first word should read:

"Annibyniaeth" (Two Ns in first syllable) not "Anibyniaeth".

There are strict rules in Welsh regarding the only two letters in Welsh that are doubled, namely "n" and "r".

These will be fully explained tomorrow by the winner of the competition, Geraint.

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Scalyback

If we are into mutation, I'm the dunce of the class :(

Was there ever an official drill book in Welsh? I guess the volunteers may of done pre TF but official line on use of mother tounges?

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SiegeGunner

The bible on mutation, I believe, was written by Rhodri Morgan's dad and runs to just short of 700 pages.

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Michael Pegum

To settle a few points raised in various posts:

"The island of Ireland back then was ruled by the British and any one speaking the Irish language would have been very brave as it was frowned upon and punished, I once heard someone quoting an Irish writer who said that the ultimate insult that the British did was to take away their mother tongue."

"When Ireland won its freedom in 1922 ish the language was again brought back into the classrooms."

It was discouraged, especially in schools, but many did speak Irish. The Gaelic Revival began in the 1870s, and encouraged the use of the Irish language. The Gaelic League, in the 1890s, campaigned successfully for Irish to be taught in schools. It was in schools long before 1922.

"Would the 1911 Census in Ireland have noted Irish language fluency as the Wales Census did with Welsh? (Though something at the back of my mind tells me that it was unique to Wales)."

Both the 1901 and 1911 Censuses in Ireland queried the ability to speak Irish.

"I'm no expert on Irish Censuses, neither the 1911 nor 1901 are on Ancestry, but this site says that Irish fluency was recorded:"

Both of these Irish Censuses are available, completely free, on line.

I would be very interested to hear of any recruiting material in Irish. I have never seen any.

Michael

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

Was there ever an official drill book in Welsh?

I believe Black & Decker did one once in the 1950s

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seaJane

Was there ever an official drill book in Welsh?

I can't find one in the catalogue of the National Library of Wales, which is a copyright deposit library.

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Ron Abbott

I don't know about Ireland however there was certainly recruiting conducted for the highland regiments in the Scots Gaelic/Gaidhlig in the 1700s and 1800s in the form of proclamations, however I have no idea whether the language continued to be used for recruiting purposes around the time of the Great War.

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bumblingblob

To settle a few points raised in various posts:

"The island of Ireland back then was ruled by the British and any one speaking the Irish language would have been very brave as it was frowned upon and punished, I once heard someone quoting an Irish writer who said that the ultimate insult that the British did was to take away their mother tongue."

"When Ireland won its freedom in 1922 ish the language was again brought back into the classrooms."

It was discouraged, especially in schools, but many did speak Irish. The Gaelic Revival began in the 1870s, and encouraged the use of the Irish language. The Gaelic League, in the 1890s, campaigned successfully for Irish to be taught in schools. It was in schools long before 1922.

"Would the 1911 Census in Ireland have noted Irish language fluency as the Wales Census did with Welsh? (Though something at the back of my mind tells me that it was unique to Wales)."

Both the 1901 and 1911 Censuses in Ireland queried the ability to speak Irish.

"I'm no expert on Irish Censuses, neither the 1911 nor 1901 are on Ancestry, but this site says that Irish fluency was recorded:"

Both of these Irish Censuses are available, completely free, on line.

I would be very interested to hear of any recruiting material in Irish. I have never seen any.

Michael

If any posters were ever printed in Irish I'm sure that Google would find some, as for the language being discouraged in schools you are spot on as all National schools were very much anti Irish and anyone speaking there native language would be punished. http://www.bitesize.irish/blog/why-do-the-irish-speak-english/

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Scalyback

Thank you Seajane a true lady, it was idle thought on my part. There is a file in either aber or Glamorgan archives relating to the "Welsh army" I might just have an idle look at.

Dai boyo, you be buying pints for the amount of bad puns at the moment ;)

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seaJane

Thank you Seajane a true lady, it was idle thought on my part.

Most kind :blush: mind you this does depend on its having been correctly catalogued with a subject heading in the first place. Not having the Welsh I searched on the correct subject heading (I hope) filtered for language = Welsh.

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