Gustav Gehrt

[AliceF]

Thank you Martin!

Yes, I'll go - and hopefully before 1918. But in 1918 I definitely cannot say ”better next year”.

To have Gustav’s name mentioned at Fins cemetery would of course be very nice, but I am not sure if this can be arranged. However, first I have to convince the Volksbund, that it is more probable that he is in Fins than in Maissemy.

Christine

[AliceF]

Hi,

went to Allstedt in Germany this summer, where Gustav Gehrt comes from. Only very shortly. Photographed the monument for soldiers there, who died in 1870/71, 1^st and 2^nd WW. See if I manage to post it. Gustav Gehrt was named, but his date of death was wrong. The same was the case for his son Willy Gehrt, who died in WW2, his death date was wrong as well. The names of the soldiers who died in WW 2 were sometimes hardly readable anymore.

Back home there was a letter from the Volksbund. Well, they acknowledged that there is a probability of Gustav still being buried in Fins. So instead of adding his name in Maissemy, they said that they will discuss the issue with the CWGC – in general terms – and will come back to me afterwards. (“Wir stehen mit der CWGC in engem Kontakt und im nächsten Monat werden Gespräche u.a. auch über die Beschriftung von deutschen Kriegstoten auf britischen Militärfriedhöfen, die dort noch nicht namentlich gekennzeichnet sind, geführt.“ If I do not hear from them, I can contact them next year again.

Just checked the database again –and yes – the Volksbund has changed the cemetery for Gustav from Maissemy to Fins: http://www.volksbund.de/index.php?id=1775&tx_igverlustsuche_pi2[gid]=4ad7db7884483503f344964078ba2762

Seems if things are on their right way now.

Christine

[Martin Feledziak]

Great News,

Get your plans made for Fins.
You still have till 2018 for his Centenary..

He won't mind how long it takes so don't worry.
He won't even mind where he is as long as he is remembered.

To be fair I feel sure that he would not even want you to make the trip.
..

Martin

[JWK]

Gratulera, Christine!

[AliceF]

Thanks! (Tack!) Christine

[ph0ebus]

Outstanding work and good results! On the right track, indeed.

-Daniel

[AliceF]

Hi,

After writing down the names of all the soldiers listed at the war memorial in Allstedt (Gustav Gehrt’s home town), I sent them to www.denkmalprojekt.

They are now published:

http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/2015/allstedt_lk-mansfeld-suedharz_1870_wk1_sachs-anhalt.html.

114 Soldiers who died in WW1; of course I tried to track them all down in the Verlustenliste and at the Volksbund. 76 I could find in the Verlustenliste, for 46 I could identify the unit (via the Verlustenliste). 29 had a known grave.

The low number in the Verlustenliste might partly be explained by the fact, that several soldiers mentioned at the memorial, might not have been born in Allstedt and thus might have been registered under different place names in the Verlustenliste (not easily to trace when death dates were not given). I have read somewhere, that almost all soldiers are registered in the Verlustenliste. If one would not find the name, it would be mostly spelling mistakes. But I have tried to check up so many soldiers now, and even if many can be found under different spellings, I got the impression, that far from all soldiers are on that list.

At least one other soldier from Allstedt was as Gustav in the FuAR 18: Kurt Spielberg, he died in September 1914.

Christine

[FROGSMILE]

Good work by you all to properly record the final resting place of these men who might otherwise be forgotten. I hope that you will be thanked one day by the relevant German authorities.

[AliceF]

Hi,

Finally: the Ehrentafel of the Fußartillerieregiment No 18 (in a typed off version), the regiment that Gustav served in. Well, I must admit that I underestimated this project a little bit.

392 soldiers. 349 I could find on the Verlustenliste at the end and 233 have a known grave. But several who have not a known grave in the Volksbund’s database had one during wartimes. Which might make it possible to find these graves (or likely burial places) for these soldiers even today.

Sent it off to the www.denkmalprojekt, so that this info is available for others.

Thanks once more for the scans Jan.

Christine

P.S. In blue on the table are adds from Verlustenliste and Volksbund.

FuAR18.docx

[AliceF]

After having received the digital versions of the VdK member journals I have started to check there for mentioning of Fins cemetery. Fins is not listed in the index, so the only way is to go through the issues one by one.

In the five years from 1921-1925 I found 5 entries:

1921 (issue 3): Fins b. Bapaume (Somme) [without further comments]

1921 (9): Fins b. Bapaume. Kränze, 5 Frs [which means that wreaths can be ordered for 5 Frs for Sunday of the death (Totensonntag)]

1922 (4): Fins b. Bapaume (Somme). In Fins liegen mehrere hundert deutsche Gräber, Photographien können beschaffen werden. [in Fins there are several hundred German graves, photographs can be obtained].

1922 (9) Fins, Frs 5 (unter Rubrik Gräberschmuck zu Allerseelen und Totensonntag) [wreaths can be ordered for All Soul’s Day and Sunday of the death]

1925 (6): Fins (Somme). Die Gräber sind verlegt worden. [The graves have been moved].

As so often it is only stated that they were moved but not where. This sentence has bothered me a bit, since the CWGC has assured me that the German graves are still there at Fins New British Cemetery (and thus I assumed that Gustav Gehrt is also still there).

Well, I guess there are two possible explanations:

1. There were other graves in Fins than the ones that are in Fins New British Cemetery today. There was for example a church cemetery extension with English burial which were moved from there.

2. This is a mix up with the German cemetery in Sorel-le-Grand (maybe less likely). But since Fins cemetery is in the municipality of Sorel-le-Grand, the names of these two cemeteries are sometimes mixed up.

Christine

[AliceF]

Daniel,

If you are reading this: Is this a relative of yours? Do you know about this? Found it when I was looking for Fins references.

http://www.hdbg.de/gedenktafeln/content/towns/Roedelsee.shtml:

„Hier ruht Adolf Stern. Kaufmann aus Nürnberg geboren zu Kitzingen am 14. April 1883 Sohn von Benjamin u. Antonie Stern. Im Weltkrieg den Heldentod erlitten als Unteroffizier im bayr. 14. Infant. Rgt. in der Sommeschlacht in Frankreich. Gestorben im Feldlazarett bei Fins am 16.September 1916. Heimgeführt aus dem Soldaten Friedhof bei Sorel le Grand und unter großer Beteiligung und militärischen Ehrengeleit hier am 7. Dezember 1916 bestattet.”

This is the resting place of Adolf Stern, merchant from Nürnberg, b. in Kitzingen on the 14th of april 1883, son of Benjamin and Antonie Stern. He died - a hero in the World War - as a noncommissioned officer in the 14th Bavarian infan.reg., in the battle of the Somme, in France. He died in the military hospital near Fins on the 16th of september 1916. He was transfered from the military cemetery of Sorel le Grand and was buried here with military honour and with the participation of a large public on the 7th of december 1916).

Christine

[Martin Feledziak]

http://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000022668240764

Adolf appears on the Stern Family tree - looks like a great find.

[ph0ebus]

Hi Christine,

Just checking in after being away for a bit. It looks like you found something quite interesting. Will check my files when I return home and will report back.

Daniel

[ph0ebus]

Looks like he is related, albeit distantly. Per Geni Adolf is my "second great aunt's uncle's wife's brother's wife's aunt's husband's wife's great nephew".

[ph0ebus]

I found three VL entries for Adolf, which line up with the details you have already found. It does add he was with 5. Kompagnie when he was mortally wounded.

http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/2790429

http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/5589374

http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/5797653

He had an older brother Siegmnd who survived the war but died in the Shoah in the Izbica ghetto.

[AOK4]

Well, I guess there are two possible explanations:

1. There were other graves in Fins than the ones that are in Fins New British Cemetery today. There was for example a church cemetery extension with English burial which were moved from there.

2. This is a mix up with the German cemetery in Sorel-le-Grand (maybe less likely). But since Fins cemetery is in the municipality of Sorel-le-Grand, the names of these two cemeteries are sometimes mixed up.

Christine

There is a third:

The Volksbund became only the official German war graves commission around 1953 IIRC. Before that, war graves abroad were the responsibility of the Zentralnachweiseamt für Kriegerverluste and the Foreign Ministry. The Volksbund magazines of the 1920s and 1930s give a lot of information about cemeteries, but a lot is unofficial: reports from visitors etc. (meaning hear-say information from care-takers or neighbours). For many years after the war, German officials were not allowed on the German cemeteries, so no official information was available until the Germans were officially allowed back. Certain cemeteries were put in order by the Volksbund, mainly in France (for which they gathered funds from veterans' associations etc.) and a few in Belgium (f.i. Langemark). However, they were only responsible for the plants and the walls and buildings etc. The graves themselves and the grave lists etc. were the responsibility of the ZAK and the Foreign Ministry, the grave crosses in France were French responsibility and stayed like that until 1971 (after the Volksbund took completely over and modernized the grave markers).

In short: the Volksbund only later received the lists of the graves, once they became responsible for them, in 1953 for Belgium WWI (interestingly about Lommel (German WW2 cemetery in Belgium), the documents about the graves and where they were buried before Lommel is NOT available from the Volksbund, but via the WASt). The Volksbund received old cemetery lists and plans in Belgium only in 1953, I believe it was in 1966 when they took over the (WW1? WW2 may have been settled differently) graves in France. The information about German graves on British cemeteries was again another matter, only last year or so an official exchange of information was arranged between CWGC and VDK. The CWGC may have had the original register and plans of the German graves in Fins (handed to them after the Versailles Treaty and because they included these graves in their cemetery), but whether they have these papers still is another matter.

German Gravestones were only placed late on German graves in British cemeteries, information may have been lost in the meantime. For Belgium, the Germans decided on (and paid for) the headstones around 1931 IIRC, I don't know about France. As the headstone (flattened in Belgium, "pointed" in France) and responsibility was at that point different, it may have been later or earlier.

You have to keep all this in mind when considering the information in the Volksbund magazines.

Jan

[AliceF]

Daniel, I see, a very distant relative otherwise you would have known about this.

Thanks for the links to the Verlustenliste.

Sorry to hear about Siegmund’s fate.

Christine

[AliceF]

Jan, thanks for taking your time for your explanations.

I understood that there is a difference between the personal travel reports and the more “official” statements on cemetery conditions/movements in the VdK member journals. More difficult is to grasp which information these more official reports were based on (informants in the different countries, own travels or as some private travel reports indicate: travelers were asked to report back to the VdK on certain issues). Nevertheless, I thought that certain bits and pieces in this information were reliable - as reburials – but as you say things have to be taken with some caution. And when there is a long list of places were graves have been moved from to Maissemy it could as well be that the area of the municipality is meant, but that not necessarily all graves were moved (as in the case of Fins).

But your explanation made me better understand the letter that I got form the VdK last year in June, stating they would meet the CWGC later that year to discuss issues of unidentified German soldiers on British cemeteries. Amazing to start those discussion 100 year after!

I would like to know how the graves are marked today at Fins – I think I’ll post a photo request.

Christine

[AliceF]

Finally, I found this yesterday:

http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/2013/fuerth-am-berg_stadt-neustadt-bei-coburg_lk-coburg_wk1_wk2_bay.html

Ludwig Dösch died in Feldlazarett 255 (same as Gustav) the 27th of August 1918 (the day before Gustav).

He is in the Verlustenliste http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/8222243, but no known grave. He served in the RIR 53 (the Verlustenliste for this unit those days at the end of August 1918 is long). I wonder where the information of his dead in FL 255 comes from, since there seems to be no regimental history of this unit.

Christine

[AliceF]

Hi,

Sent an e-mail to the twgpp a couple of days ago and asked if they could send me a photo of grave 10, row C, plot 6 in Fins. They could not – not so strange – they do no photograph graves of unknown soldiers, since they look all the same. BUT they sent me very kindly a very nice photo of the part of the cemetery in Fins, where the row is located with an arrow indicating the location of the grave.

It all looked very beautiful and I am very content how this turned out. The photo – which I do not dare to post because of copy rights – shows the cemetery in summer time. All graves are beautifully planted with flowers – British and Germans alike. All graves of this row and all the others have headstones. I was not entirely sure about how the German graves of unidentified soldiers looked like since I could not really locate them on the photos of Fins cemetery I have seen. I cannot read the inscriptions, but assume that it will be something like unknown German soldier (the twgpp sent me also examples of that). The only difference I can see between German and British graves is the colour of the headstones, the German ones being a bit more yellowish and having a bit more space between them (probably placed there later?).

Well, if this is it – which I believe – it could not be better. Especially considering that this is “another” nation taking care of these graves and setting up the headstones. I am very glad that Gustav was not moved to a mass grave in Maissemy – even if I do not entirely understand why.

Christine

[Martin Feledziak]

Greeting Christine.

Sounds like a great result for you and I feel sure he is there and at rest in that plot 469.

just like Johann in Consenvoye, they died in lazarettes, hospital and field hospital.

so they were known at the time of burial.

just overtime the documents for Gustav became misfiled or a little confused but I do not see any reason why he would have been moved.

It is not like that plot was going to be re-issued.

Martin

PS I was amazed to see 37 seesoldats are at rest at fins

[AliceF]

Thanks Martin!

I was also very surprised to find soldiers from the marine regiments resting at Fins cemetery. But here http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/verlustlisten/vl_mar_inf_div_1_wk1.htmI could read that they were already in 1914 sent to Flandern – very badly equipped. There are regimental histories, which could tell more.

Christine

[AOK4]

Hello,

The 3rd Marine Division was considered a good unit and served as a normal infantry unit, as did the 63rd (Naval) Division in the British army.

Please bear in mind that a Marine-Infanterie-Regiment (being raised by the former marine infantry and colonial troops) is totally different than a Matrosen-Regiment (manned by navy reservists). And also that units from 1914 are not to be compared to units from 1918. Some of the Reserve Divisions raised in 1914 had been reequiped and retrained and were first class units by 1916...

Jan

[AliceF]

Jan, I appreciate your enlightenments – I always learn something new.

Christine

[AliceF]

If you ever wondered about the number of German soldiers buried in British cemeteries in France in general:
I attach here a file with an overview that I compiled. I am sure this is available elsewhere, I just do not know where. The number of German soldiers buried in British cemeteries is about 1% of those buried in cemeteries taken care by the Volksbund (German cemeteries).

Christine

P.S. I forgot to add that this compilation is based only on cemeteries where identified German soldiers are buried. It is not possible to search systematically for information about cemeteries with only unidentified German Soldiers.

German WW1 burials in British cemeteries in France.docx

Edited 21 January , 2016 by AliceF