Gustav Gehrt

[trajan]

But progress of a kind. Schlaf in Frieden Gustav

[AliceF]

Hi,

Some aftermath, for those who might search in another context:

1. I attach the 2 pages (split in 4 files) of “Ehrentafel der Gefallenen des Fußartillerie-Regiments Nr. 18” Munitionskolonne der 4., 7., and partly of the 8. Battery, which I got from the Volksbund.
2. I attach a file that I compiled on German soldiers buried in Fins New British Cemetery. This list is entirely based on http://www.twgpp.org/.
3. There is confusion about the fact that there were two cemeteries in the same area with similar names. So when the Volksbund gave me the information that bodies were moved from Sorel-Le-Grand to Maissemy, they must have meant the German cemetery in Sorel-Le-Grand, which does not exist anymore today and NOT from Fins New British Cemetery, Sorel-Le-Grand. See for example: http://villagedenurlu-somme.over-blog.com/2014/01/heudicourt-sorel-wilhem-mayer-un-%C3%A9trange-destin.html (But I do not want to say that bodies were not moved from Fins to Maissemy as well – I do not know)
4. The only other soldier that I could find on the internet that died in the Feldlazarett 255 in Fins around that time (August 1918), has not a known grave either – as Gustav Gehrt: Karl Müller from Schwaigern http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/Gedenkbuecher/heilbronn_ehrenbuch3_bw.htm .

If any of you has

• photographs from Fins hospital (English or German) from WW1 or
• Fins New British Cemetery from WW1 or
• the complete Ehrentafel of the Fußartillerie-Regiment Nr. 18
• or any death records of German soldiers in Feldlazarett 255 in Fins in 1918

I would be still very happy to get a link or copy.

Best regards

Christine

Ehrentafel_1

Ehrentafel_No18_1.pdf

[trajan]

What a splendid piece of research! And many thanks for sharing it and so letting us others read what you have been able to learn.

Trajan

[AOK4]

Hello,

I'll try to combine some things to see wether I can match any of the names of Fins BC to Feldlazarett 255...

Jan

[AOK4]

BINGO!

It seems that Leutnant Josef Henne (Infanterie-Regiment 120) died at the Feldlazarett in Fins and now has a special memorial (if you like at the dates of the special memorials, it is clear that the last graves before the Allies retook the area were not fully registered, usually there was only a numbered grave and the cross with all the details was put later, in this case it became impossible as the area was lost) were in Fins New British Cemetery.

He's not the only one, I also found that Johann Marx (Flieger-Abteilung (A) 219) had died in Fins and also Wackenhut (7/RIR 248) died in a Feldlazarett (Reserve-Feldlazarett 93) in Fins.

It is 99,99% sure that Gustav Gehrt is buried among the unknwon Germans at Fins New British Cemetery.

It

Regards,

Jan

[AliceF]

Thanks so much for your efforts Jan!

I think so, too, that Gustav's remains are in Fins.

Well, now the task left to do is to visit the place .

Christine

[Martin Feledziak]

There is a fault on the imagery along this road but this is a screen shot from Google Earth.

the below file will open with Google Earth.

Fins British Cemetery.kmz

[Ken S.]

Heinirch Marius Rohde -- Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment 203

http://www.weltkriegsopfer.de/Kriegsopfer-Heinrich-Marius-Rohde_Soldaten_0_310109.html?PHPSESSID=8f9cbc9efe56a00f7ba9dad4f63f6dc8

http://des.genealogy.net/eingabe-verlustlisten/search/index

The regiment was part of 43. Reserve-Division, which was in the area. Unfortunately, the regimental history (which was published in 4 volumes after the Second World War) is very difficult to find (frustrating for me because it's possible that my paternal grandfather served in it during the last year or so of the war). I do have the history for another regiment in the division, Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment 202, but it not very detailed and doesn't mention where the wounded men died.

Aside from 27. Infanterie-Division, also in the area was 108. Infanterie-Division; I have two of the histories from this unit: Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment 265 and Husaren-Regiment Nr. 17 (part 2).

If any of you has

• photographs from Fins hospital (English or German) from WW1 or
• Fins New British Cemetery from WW1 or
• the complete Ehrentafel of the Fußartillerie-Regiment Nr. 18
• or any death records of German soldiers in Feldlazarett 255 in Fins in 1918

[AliceF]

Thanks for the photo, Martin.

And interesting about Heinrich Marius Rohde, Ken. Did you notice that the date of death on www.weltkriegsopfer.de for Heinrich is not the same as in the Verlustenliste. In the Verlustenliste it is the 28^th of August 1918, same date as Gustav actually.

Christine

[Ken S.]

I actually missed that, but going on what's in the regimental history for RIR202 they took many more casualties starting mid-August than in late July. I also took a closer look at the wiki listing for RIR203 and it indicates that the last volume of the regimental history only covers the period up to March 1918. I'm not sure it would even have an honour roll. I suspect whoever created the listing is basing it on personal papers in their possession.

others who died at Feldlazarett 255

Otto Franz

http://denkmalprojekt.org/verlustlisten/mar_inf_div_1_wk1_teil_2.htm

Paul Sielaff

http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/Gedenkbuecher/stuttgart_eb_wk1_s3.htm

Here are a few men who served with Feldlazarett 255

Fridolin Dettling

http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/Gedenkbuecher/stuttgart_eb_wk1_d.htm

http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/4667093

Alfons Rummel

http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/Gedenkbuecher/stuttgart_eb_wk1_r.htm

[AliceF]

Interesting. Otto Franz is buried in Fins. Paul Sielaff died when the field lazarett 255 was not in Fins anymore, so thus he is not buried there.

Does anyone actually know which day the British troupes arrived at Fins in September 1918 (I guess it was September, but could also be one of the last days in August)?

Christine

[ph0ebus]

A great thread...wonderful that the pieces are coming together!

Daniel

[AliceF]

Yes, I am glad about that!

And there are other stories to discover, too. I found this webpage about English soldiers buried in Fins: http://www.ww1cemeteries.com/ww1frenchcemeteries/fins.htm. It contains also the only photo of Fins cemetery form the Great War time that I have found so far.

And there is the story of Willy Behnke (also spelled Willi Behnke). First in German below in English (sorry about my clumsy translation). Quite a different language between notification and the text of the death certificate.

„Den Heldentod fürs Vaterland starb:

38. Kan. Willy Behnke, S. [sohn] des Arbeiters Ludwig B. in Sienno, geb. 20. Dez. 1894. Die Schwester, Frau Wiese, erhielt folgende Nachricht: Wie Ihnen am 7.9.18 telegraphlich mitgeteilt wurde, ist Ihr Bruder, der Kan. W.B. 9. Batterie Feldart.-Regt. … infolge schwerer Verwundung am 26.8.18 früh mit Zuspruch des evangelischen Geistlichen den Heldentod gestorben. Trotz aller ärztlichen Bemühungen ist es nicht gelungen, ihn am Leben zu erhalten. Er ist am 24.8. bei Mametzwald vor Albert am Kopf und Rumpf schwer verwundet worden. Der Verstorbene ist auf dem Heldenfriedhof zu Fins nordöstl. Peronne am 26.8. abends beerdigt worden.“

Quelle: Heimatgrüße aus der Kirchengemeinde Sienno Oktober 1918 (Seite 40); http://digital.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/werkansicht/?PPN=PPN769898416

„Sterbeurkunde 26. Arbeiter Willy Behnke zu Fins im Fledlazarett 188 am 25. Aug. [sic!] infolge Hirnstreckschusses und Zertrümmerung des rechten Auges.“

Quelle: Heimatgrüße aus der Kirchengemeinde Sienno November 1918 (Seite 44) (gleiche Link wie oben)

“The heroic death for his country died:

38. Kan. Willy Behnke, son of the workman Ludwig B. in Sienno, born 20^th Dec. 1894. The sister, Mrs. Wiese, received following message: You were informed at the 7.9.18 by a telegraph, that your brother, Kan. W.B. Battery Fieldart.-Reg., died after being seriously wounded. He died early in the morning of the 26.8.18, a protestant priest was with him. Despite all medical efforts, it was not possible to keep him alive. He was seriously wounded at the head and torso on the 24.8. near the Mametz forest close to Albert. The deceased is buried on the heroes’ cemetery in Fins northeast of Peronne in the evening of the 26.8.”

Source: Heimatgrüße aus der Kirchengemeinde Sienno Oktober 1918 (p. 40); http://digital.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/werkansicht/?PPN=PPN769898416

« Death certificate 26. Workman Willy Behnke in Fins field hospital 188 at the 25th Aug. [sic !] because of a headshot and comminution of the right eye.»

Source: Heimatgrüße aus der Kirchengemeinde Sienno November 1918 (p. 44) (same link as above)

Christine

[AliceF]

The English documentation of war graves is so well done, I think, looking at for example at http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery.aspx?cpage=1. What a surprise when I looked closer at the documentation of one of the British soldiers buried here, F. Collinge, yesterday: http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/554488/COLLINGE,%20F. Look at this, on the grave registration report form there is not only the British, but also the German grave reference given for the first grave on that form: grave number 418, grave of Theodor Sussmilch. (I am searching for grave number 469). This gives me somehow the feeling that not all documentation concerning German graves was lost.

I had contacted the CWGC, but regarding the unidentified German soldiers, in Fins they could only send me a list of grave places. Nothing else, no dates or order in which they were made. But never the less, it gives me the chance to count forwards and backwards in the different rows… (Yes I know one can get quite obsessed by this, read about it on this Forum as well).

British are much more engaged in remembering the soldiers which have participated in the Great War, I have read, while German graves in Belgium and France or even in Germany are hardly visited by Germans. And of course one of the explanations given was WW2. I guess this is also the case for my family. There were two generations that were just not able to talk about either WW1 or WW2, it was too painful.

Well, the entire story about Gustav I have taken up again, because my son had made a trip with his school to Belgium to look at war graves and battle places (Great War). He is going to school in Sweden – in my German school time we always jumped over the time 1848-1918 – to go to Belgium to look at WW1 graves and battle fields would never have crossed anybody’s mind. Strange regarding the fact that I probably had at least 3 times lessons about ancient Egypt.

Christine

[Martin Feledziak]

Very Interesting Christine.

Here is a print of the grave report you were looking at.

Could this be the missing Johannes Reeh. He appears on the below list as 'missing'. There are no reports of his death.

I wonder if you have now found him ?

http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/9201562

[AOK4]

Hello,

The documents then list plenty of German graves indicated by unnumbered pegs (they probably didn't have time to put the numbers on them?). Gehrt is one of these graves.

Jan

[AliceF]

Yes you are right Jan. The thing is only that the machine written information (see above) is from 1920 and the handwritten notes from 1924 - as I understood it. Thus there was a type of information added later, somehow available. I do not want to do this ad absurdum, but I was really happy to find the information about grave 418, because that gave me some kind of confirmation that Gustav Gehrt could really be there. The last thing I asked now the CWGC is if they have the German grave number of Otto Fernand, the last German soldier that has a known grave number at Fins. He died at the 27/8/18, and was a Hauptman. And as I look at the Volksbund webpage, he died in Fins, field hospital 188.

This issue with Johannes Reeh is a bit fascinating as he is registered as Johannes Beeh at Finns (yes with B and not R). There is a Johannes Beeh that died 31/7/18 on the Verlustenliste (because of illness). So Reeh must have been a spelling mistake.

Christine

[AOK4]

Hauptmann Otto Fernand was buried in grave 460 and now in plot 6 row C grave 1. See attachment.

[AliceF]

Well, Jan, I haven't seen that page that you have attached before. This is incredible. 460 is exactly the grave number that I calculated for Otto Fernand –IF soldiers were buried regularly in the rows. And I know that this often was not the case, but in the case it fits. In think this is as close as I can get. So probably Gustav Gehrt is buried in Fins in plot VI C around grave 9. But he could also be buried in 5D or 6D. I got no information that bodies were moved to Maissemy from Fins. So that option seems unlikely, since the German soldiers are still in Fins according to all documentation. All the graves were individually in these rows.

Great! Via this Forum I got really an answer to my question!

Thanks a lot!

Christine

[Martin Feledziak]

Well Done Christine,

You had the number 469 - That has to be the one.

Very good detective work !

[AOK4]

I think you should submit the information to the Volksbund/CWGC and ask that they change one of the stones to your relative's name.

I can send you the relevant CWGC documents as well if you want to have closer look to see which grave exactly it could be. Please send me your e-mail adress for that.

Jan

[Martin Feledziak]

Perhaps there are more mysteries solved by your searching.

could this be

Hugo Beyerle - full birth date 09 07 1890, so just 18 years. I can't access the previous page 30829 where his unit information could be found.( perhaps IR247)

could he be 1. Machinegun Kompanie

http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/5766170

[AliceF]

Hugo Beyerle's grave is actually already registered in Fins according to the Volksbund:

http://www.volksbund.de/index.php?id=1775&tx_igverlustsuche_pi2[gid]=aeda860f59b98e827bc1b0e9590279a4

So the Volksbund must have had access to these handwritten notes. What apparently has not been done - or could not be done - is to put the German grave number behind all graves on the list. Then identification would have been possible even today – as long as the relatives had got the German grave number.

As Jan pointed out sometimes there were only the numbers on the graves, and crosses with names put in place later. This replacement could not happen in times were frontlines moved. But somehow for the identified graves at Fins also the German numbers were kept, but probably not for the graves which had no names.

This blog here has nice WW1 photos from Nurlu, neighbouring village of Fins. Also from a German cemetery – with probably only the numbers on the graves before the crosses were in place:

http://villagedenurlu-somme.over-blog.com/page/5

Christine

[AliceF]

The files that Jan sent, could confirm previous assumptions (further grave registration forms from Fins cemetery). The files contained the German grave numbers for several rows as well as the British grave references. Thus graves were ordered in rows like this:

5A – 6A-5B-?-?-6C-5D-6D. Thus it is to assume that the missing parts are ordered like this: 5A-6A-5B-6B-5C-6C-5D-6D. That means also that Gustav Gehrt could not be buried in 5D or 6D since theses rows have grave numbers containing 485-501. So that option is ruled out as well.

It is very likely that Gustav Gehrt is buried in VI C 10 (not VI C 9 as I wrote yesterday evening, then I was so excited that I could not even count until 10 anymore).

And there is at least on soldier on the list that has not a known grave in the German database of the Volksbund: Karl Widmann (I checked also for Karl Wiedmann and Karl Weidmann).

Christine

[Martin Feledziak]

Good Evening Christine.

I am now confused - I thought Gustav would be found in Plot 6 Row C - in grave 469,
so in the spot very near to the end of the row. Or half way if there are 10 more graves to follow.

Row B looks like there are 16 graves.

Here is a graphic for where I think he could be.

I think you have achieved your goal and you now have a place for you to pay your respects.

My Great Uncle is at rest at Servon Melzicot.
Johann Feledziak died of wounds 100 years and 2 days ago. And no member of my family has been to his grave.

Most of my, now dead ,elders would not have known where his grave was.

But I will visit Johann next month.