Gustav Gehrt

[AliceF]

Hi,

That’s great that you actually will make the visit to Servon Melzicot. Where is that place? I saw your post two days ago remembering Johann Feledziak. It must be a strange feeling to be the first relative at the grave. I have not come that far. I am not sure why my mother or my grandmother never tried to find out more. It was as if the place did not matter to them– Gustav died in France – that was it. But a kind of trauma started with that, which got repeated in WW2.

Well, I assume that you will tell on the forum how your journey to Servon Melziot was including some photos.

Regarding the graves in Fins I would really like to post the file on the Forum with the documentation of the graves. Someone else might search later in another context, too. I just do not manage to load up any files any more – either too large or something else that does not work.

The British and German grave references are different. While the Germans started at some (to me mystic place) with number one and continued through the whole period they occupied Fins, the British had the system with blocks, rows and graves. The tricky thing was to match these two.

VI C 1 has the German grave number 460 – according to the documentation Jan sent. Then I count to grave number 469 and I end up at VI C 10 (row C has 17 graves). The German numbering then just continues through the rows and ends with 501 at VI D 8. One could match all the graves – if there were not all these irregularities, graves with several soldiers, jumping over graves with the numbering, spelling mistakes etc. But at the time when Gustav died soldiers were buried quite regularly in individual graves.

Good night!

Christine

[Martin Feledziak]

Hi Christine.

This forum is such a great place for discovery. I arrived here at the end of 2013 looking for information about Johann. Now I am stuck here and look everyday for new items. I appear to have become addicted.

If you have time to look at my present family voyage it is here, but it is 18 pages long so you may need some time to view it. It is not just about Johann but many other Feledziak's.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=201713&hl=

As for Gustav - you have him back too.

Good night

Martin

[AOK4]

The British and German grave references are different. While the Germans started at some (to me mystic place) with number one and continued through the whole period they occupied Fins, the British had the system with blocks, rows and graves. The tricky thing was to match these two.

I would say that the Germans included the existing British graves in their numbering.

[ph0ebus]

I am just curious if there was any run through German newspapers from that time period that covered his home town that might have some clues about Gustav's final whereabouts? Not that a newspaper article would have the precise grave info but every little bit of evidence helps..

-Daniel

[AliceF]

Well, I had similar thoughts after I accidently found the notes on Willy Behnke from Sienno in the “Heimatgrüße” (see above). However, I haven’t found anything yet. Gustav Gehrt is from Allstedt (at that time Thüringen), former Eastern Germany. I have no idea which newspaper could have covered that little town. There was one but I think it origins from after WW1. But there is probably still more to explore regarding that issue. While searching in that direction I found an old address book of Allstedt.

http://www.allstedt.com/content2.php?linkid2=31&linkbez=Historisches&nr=&resnr=&we_id=

It contained the address of the home of Gustav’s father Friedrich Gehrt, where also Gustav and his family were living: Gerstenstraße 122, Allstedt.

Christine

[ph0ebus]

Alice,

Do you happen to be familiar with the other Gehrts from Allstedt who also appear in the velustlistes? I see a Friedrich, Otto, Willi and Willy. Are they relations?

-Daniel

[AliceF]

Gustav Gehrt had three children: Alice (my grandmother, born 1913), Gustav (born 1915) and Willy (born 1917). Willy Gehrt died 17.4.1944 in Trybuchowce (Ukraine) and was buried there at the church. When I tried to search for him he was already registered in the database of the Volksbund and probably moved to Potelitsch to a mass grave (but of course they could not identify him after all the time). About Gustav, the other son, I know virtually nothing, but he survived WW2 and died in 18.4.1974 – 30 years and 1 day later than his brother Willy. Gustav (born 1915) had two children, and the son might actually be still living near Allstedt. I checked during the last days, but hesitate to take contact. Alice and her brother Gustav never met after 1945 again (border in between), but contact was kept by mail until the 1990ies, but got lost by the next generation.

No idea if Gustav Gehrt (the one who died in 1918) had any brothers. The documentation I have is only concerning parents, grandparents and so forth. Several were called Friedrich, August, Gustav, Willy/Willi/Willfried. But his father Friedrich survived WW1, probably he did not participate, I guess. However, there might be brothers or cousins of Gustav that I do not know about.

Christine

(Alice is my user name in memory of my grandmother who lost her father, brother and husband in the wars)

[AliceF]

Jan,

do you have the complete Ehrentafel of the Fußartillerieregiment 18? Would it be possible for you to send it to me without too much effort for you - the list you found Gustav Gehrt on? Or would it be somehow possible for me to gain the list? I have no typed of the page I got from the Volksbund it was only 2 pages (258-259) comprising the Munitionskolonne of the 4^th Battery (but not Battery 4 itself), the 7^th Battery (incl. Munitionskolonne) and part of the 8^th Battery (until Emil Seling). Well, took quite a while with this “little job”. Of course I would be particular interested in the 4^th Battery.

The list I had contained 61 names almost all also on the Verlustenliste (but 6 were not). Almost half, but not more, had a known grave registered by the Volksbund. Somehow I would still like to make this information available for others – thinking about to send it here http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/covers_vl/vl_wk1_index.htm

It was here I looked first (after Voksbund) when searching for Gustav Gehrt.

I am not able to attach any more files at this forum. Nothing, not even the World file of 20kb with the list. Maybe I have used my space. I do not know.

Christine

[AOK4]

Christine,

I'll try to send the complete list next week to your e-mail adress.

Jan

[AliceF]

Thank you very much in advance - it is no hurry - and the typing will take quite a bit of time as well! Christine

[Martin Feledziak]

Is your little Picture Alice ?

and are you now a GWF addict ?

[AliceF]

Yes, this is Alice my grandmother (daughter of Gustav).

And yes kind of addicted. I have my little projects now. The list of soldiers of the Fuss-AR 18 who died and to check the information of graves in Fins.

For example, there was this grave in Fins of a German lieutenant “Notker”, one of only two, who were buried there already in 1917 (when the British were in Fins). No surname given. There is no such name in the whole Verlustenliste. I think it might be a spelling mistake and should be Nocker. There is a Max Nocker from Augsburg, a lieutenant of the reserve on the Verlustenliste, who was in captivity. It could be him.

Much to discover.

Christine

[Ken S.]

Could be Notter.

[AOK4]

Hello,

The British graves registration report says: for plot 2 row A grave 17: RIR 27 ... Gustav 3-11-17 and for grave 18: RIR 27 Officer Motker 3-11-17.

This "Officer Motker" should be Unteroffizier Motzko: http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/9628872(The regiment was engaged at that point near Ribécourt near Cambrai, not that far away, and suffered some casualties during a raid, according to the regimental history).

It wasn't always easy to correctly identify dead from the other side or transcribe the name etc. correctly...

Jan

[AliceF]

Yes, you are right I should not speculate too much about persons I know too little about.

The Volksbund says it would be a "Leutnant", the documentation form of Fins says “Lt” (and there they have changed between M and N). But maybe the English shortage for Lt. is Uffz. Actually the form also gives the unit: 27 RIR. But that did not help me, but maybe that was the unit you found him in, Jan.

Christine

[AliceF]

Right, Motzko seems to be the only officer from the RIR 27 starting with an M or N who was missed at that time (http://denkmalprojekt.org/2013/RIR-27_8-12komp_wk1.html) . Wonder how a relative looking for a Peter Motzko could possibly be able to find him in Fins as a lieutenant Notker.

Christine

[AOK4]

Right, Motzko seems to be the only officer from the RIR 27 starting with an M or N who was missed at that time (http://denkmalprojekt.org/2013/RIR-27_8-12komp_wk1.html) . Wonder how a relative looking for a Peter Motzko could possibly be able to find him in Fins as a lieutenant Notker.

Christine

An Unteroffizier is not an officer, but the similarity explains how things got sometimes mixed up. Motker is the name that was on the original British list.

I also checked the regimental history of RIR 27.

[AliceF]

Now I am through the first third of the documentation forms for the graves of Fins British New Cemetery, that Jan has sent me a couple of weeks ago.

So far all the identified German soldiers that I have checked have been registered by the Volksbund and their graves are known. Even the the ones I maybe mentioned before as unsolved like Paul Lachler – who is Paul Lächler. However, in several cases the names are probably wrongly spelt, but this is often impossible to trace besides one would check with the regiment lists as well. I have not done that. But Jan found for example out that soldier Notker is Peter Motzko.

Sometimes information is given on field hospitals and many of the dead died there, not only F.L. 255 and F.L. 188, but also F.L. 253 was in Fins during 1918.

Going the other way gives more open questions/unsolved cases:

Form the list of the Marine IR 3:

GLADITZ, Friedrich, Fulda, 2.4.1918 F.L. Fins (4. Komp)

HAAK, Johann, Bullenberg, Leer, 28.03.1918, F.L. Fins (4. Komp)

SKABA, Franz, Poppelau, 29.4.1918, F.L. Fins (8. Komp)

I think these soldiers have not known graves, SKABA is missing.

Christine

[AliceF]

Hi,

Well it took me over a month and seemingly hundreds of hours to go through the grave list on German graves at Fins New British Cemetery, that I got from Jan. I aimed for “nothing more” than to create a simple list of the 184 German soldiers buried at Fins, their names, military units, birth date, place, date of death and place. The same type of list as there is for British soldiers at Fins provided by the CWGC. But for me as an amateur this was a bit of challenge. I compiled my list and sent it off to the Volksbund together with some of the grave report forms I got from Jan and will see what happens.

I got a bit irritated about the nonchalance of German authorities at

that time (1914-1918), who in some years did not even bother to add the full birth date and rarely the death date in their official casualty lists. Some years not the military units or even ranks were given.

Thus my Fins list is anything but complete, I would like to post it here, but as usually too large. Below at least some dates on times were various German field hospitals have been at Fins (based on given death place for soldiers).

Christine

RF.L. 93: 24.3, 25.3., 29.3., 31.3., 2.4., 3.4., 5.4., 6.4.1918

F.L. 138: 15.5., 3.6., 20.8.1918

F.L. 188: 26.8., 27.8.1918

F.L. 253: 5.4., 12.4., 15.4., 18.4., 20.4., 23.4.1918

F.L. 255: 28.8.1918

[AliceF]

Hi,

Finally I managed to upload the file with info on German soldiers buried at Fins New British cemetery. Had to remove another file from an earlier post to get this done (and had to cut columns with links).

Kind regards

Christine

Edited 1 June , 2015 by AliceF

[AOK4]

Hello,

I did a very quick check for some names in the Ehrenmal des Preußischen Offizierkorps and the Ehrenrangliste der Kaiserlich Deutschen Marine (both lists of German officers) and found quite a bit of extra information. A thorough check may come up with plenty more, also the Württemberg Kriegsstammrollen should be checked (some of which are online now) to find out more, just as the regimental histories.

As I said before, if one would go through the war diaries of the Württemberg Feldlazarette, there may be more information there as well for some of the unknown graves (but that would take quite a bit of time, which I don't have unfortunately).

Luther, Oskar: Leutnant der Reserve, IR 373 wounded 26/8 (Montauban) died 28/8/18.

Kauffmann, Hans: Leutnant der Reserve, IR 373 wounded 24/8 (Pozières) died 28/8/18.

Knorr, Heinrich: first name Karl, born 5/3/1889 Leutnant der Reserve, MarIR 3 died 5/4/18 (Albert) (Ehrenrangliste der Kaiserlich Deutschen Marine)

Hinkelmann, Max: born 6/4/1894 Leutnant der Reserve, MarIR 1 died 25/3/18 (Contalmaison) (Hinckelmann according to Ehrenrangliste der Kaiserlich Deutschen Marine)

Mielcke, Franz: Leutnant der Reserve, RIR 440 died 22/3/18 (Epéhy) according to the Ehrenmal des Preußischen Offizierkorps: Mielke

Fokker, Rudolf: Leutnant der Reserve, RIR 440 died 22/3/18 (Epéhy) according to EPO: Fokken

Glatzel, Ralph: born 31/5/1894 (Ehrenrangliste der Kaiserlich Deutschen Marine)

Clausen, Hans: born 11/3/1895 (EKDM)

Jan

[AOK4]

Hello,

I couldn't help checking the Toten-Gedenkbuch of Fußartillerie-Regiment 13/24:

Gefr. Ludwig Gummert was born 9/5/1886 in Grünblum, he died 25/3/1918 in the Feldlazarett Fins

Obergefreiter Wilhelm Limbach (10. Batterie Fußartillerie-Regiment 24 as well) was born 15/12/1888 in Grimberg and died 25/3/1918 in Feldlazarett Fins.

Both are in grave 4 E 6.

Leutnant Ruoff, Fritz was born 16/9/1893 in Obertürkheim and died in Etricourt on 24 March 1918.

Jan

[AliceF]

Thanks very much, Jan! I will do an update. I am very aware of the fact that this file is in “working progress”. Great with additional information from others! This is how far I got with the information I had available, but I am really lacking the regimental information (Verlustenliste, Ehrentafel) of many units. But as I said I do not see this as finished.

If you or any others have digital links to more information, which is free available – I am always thankful to receive these.

Yes, and the Kriegsstamrollen would be nice of course. Maybe they will be digital available at some stage….

Christine

[AliceF]

Here the update of the Fins-file including Jan's information (I had to delete the previous file to have space to upload the new version).

Christine

Fins_update1.pdf

[Martin Feledziak]

Hi Christine,

Very interesting work you are doing.

I feel sure you already know that this is the place for you to visit.

Go there in August 2018.

It would be nice for there to be a Cross already with his name to show you his place.

But I am sure he is there.

But you can keep looking for now.