charlie962 Posted 19 March , 2015 Share Posted 19 March , 2015 I've looked at Long trail but don't find the IndianArmy type of Medal index card. The above officer (James Francis Petrie) has a British Army card which I've seen and refers to medals dealt with by Indian Army. So I've obtained the IA MIC from NA and it shows: WM "issued Govt of India" VM "issued Govt of India" Both these are stamped on rather than handwritten. There is then another stamp "M5589/23" which is in a box headed Clasps to War Medal. Is this just an admin reference or does it give me extra information? there is remarkably little info on the IA card. Incidently many thanks for the old link giving access to the April 1922 Indian Army List which gives me some information on him, including employment with North Waziristan Militia 30.9.17 to 29.9.20. Might this mean an entitlement to the IGS medal ? Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 19 March , 2015 Share Posted 19 March , 2015 It was planned that a number of clasps would be issued, marking service in different areas of conflict, to be worn on the BWM. Due to the high number of clasps proposed ( Navy 79 Army 68) it was perceived as impractical, though some RN were sanctioned but not issued, and the plan was not taken forward. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 19 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 19 March , 2015 Thank you heritage plus Hence the box on the card; do I take it that the stamped reference is just for admin and tells me nothing about the man's service? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 19 March , 2015 Share Posted 19 March , 2015 I believe that is the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 20 March , 2015 Share Posted 20 March , 2015 The FIBIS Fibiwiki has a page Frontier Corps which has links which may give an idea about the role of the various Frontier Militia, which were not “regiments” of the Indian Army, rather they were armed para-military units paid for by the civil purse and under the control of the local Political Agent. Officers were seconded from the Indian Army. http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/Frontier_Corps The North Waziristan Militia was later replaced by the Tochi Scouts I get the impression that operations of the Militia were very local, as they were under local control, and therefore it is somewhat unlikely that they would have been involved in any actions for which medals were awarded. However, this is an impression only, so I could certainly be wrong. The British Library does hold some medal rolls, see the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Medal Rolls, but there may possibly be other catalogue references which are not listed. http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/Medal_Rolls By the way charlie962, although I have suspected that the Indian Government issued medals such the WM and the VM, your comment is the first time I have seen this in writing, and I have not found any reference to medal rolls for these medals at the British Library. Cheers Maureen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 20 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 20 March , 2015 here is the IA card 5I dont know how to extract just the card)petrie IA .pdf.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 20 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 20 March , 2015 and here is the standard uk card. oops too large to upload and I dont know how to extract or reduce the file size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 20 March , 2015 Share Posted 20 March , 2015 here is the IA card Very interesting to see the actual card, thanks for posting Cheers Maureen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headgardener Posted 20 March , 2015 Share Posted 20 March , 2015 I get the [/color]impression that operations of the Militia were very local, as they were under local control, and therefore it is somewhat unlikely that they would have been involved in any actions for which medals were awarded. However, this is an impression only, so I could certainly be wrong.The fact that he received a BWM &VM indicates that he served in a location that was considered to be a theatre of war - very likely to be the North-West Frontier province, I suspect. The Government of India were responsible for issuing campaign medals (as recorded on many MIC's) to men of the Indian Army. I note that your man has 2 MIC's (I've only checked on TNA's database, and haven't checked them on Ancestry), so presumably there may be further details on the other card. Edit: I would expect that he was entitled to an IGS, but if he was then it would normally have been recorded on his MIC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 21 March , 2015 Share Posted 21 March , 2015 I should have specified that my comments in post 5 were in response to charlie962's question in post 1" Might this mean an entitlement to the IGS medal ?" The following link from northeastmedals.co.uk sets out the criteria for the various clasps for the IGS 1908-1935 http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/britishguide/india_general_service_1908_award.htm Those in the relevant period of service are *Afghanistan N.W. F. 1919 includes “With the Waziristan Force” *Mahsud 1919-20 All officers and men who served under the orders of the General Officer Commanding, Waziristan Force *Waziristan 1919-21 All officers and men of the Waziristan Force They were only awarded to those in the ”Waziristan Force” and I suspect that it is unlikely that a para-military group, not part of the Army, would be part of these war forces. Cheers Maureen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 21 March , 2015 Share Posted 21 March , 2015 This may be of interest for background on the unit: http://www.kaiserscross.com/304501/455322.html Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 23 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 23 March , 2015 thank you Maureene and head gardener. I hear what you say about the militia. Who do I contact to get a copy (if it exists) of his service record ? He was my Grandfather and would have died in the fifties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headgardener Posted 23 March , 2015 Share Posted 23 March , 2015 thank you Maureene and head gardener. I hear what you say about the militia. Who do I contact to get a copy (if it exists) of his service record ? He was my Grandfather and would have died in the fifties. He might have a service record as a Brotish army officer and as an Indian Army officer. Therefore it's worth checking the National Archives, and the India Office Library Collection at the British Library (check their guidelines for researchers for details of the various source materials - they include service files, applications for commission into the Indian Army, Army Lists, Indian Army Lists, residential directories for British people living in India, etc). Despite the fact that he was serving with a militia, I'd say there's a reasonable chAnce that he may have qualified for an India General Service medal (although this would generally be mentioned on his MIC). It may still be worth checking the medal roll, though. P.S. if he continued to serve into the 1920's or during WW2 then his service papers may still be with the MOD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 23 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 23 March , 2015 thanks headgardener. I did search discovery NA for him but found nothing. I do recall hearing that he left the army and worked in commerce in India and served in the AFI Calcutta Scottish. I will have to do some digging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 26 January , 2016 Author Share Posted 26 January , 2016 just an update on my search I managed to find the school he went to and contacted the Archivist/ Librarian. Very helpful. Apart from telling me that JFP won the sack race in the school's 1911 athletics competition she gave me an extract of the school Register. The relevant details are: Born 30.8.1898 Left school 1915 IA Cadet 1915 2nd Lt 2nd Guides 1916 Capt 1920 Retired 1923 1914-18 War Afghanistan 1919 medal & bars Waziristan 1919, 1921-2 two bars (sic) Died 5.7.57 This at least clarifies that he did get something for his time on the NW Frontier but the bar listings don't match the official IGSM bars ? I probably have to go to another forum for questions about this and finding/ checking medal rolls. I have looked at FIBIS, BL and NA and not made any progress at all ! Similarly no progress on finding where a service record might lurk. Any further thoughts please? Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 27 January , 2016 Share Posted 27 January , 2016 My understanding (which could be incorrect) of the medal situation for the period you are interested in, is that if he received an IGSM he should appear in the medal rolls on Ancestry. Regarding his service record, I suspect you will not locate one. I had a look in the catalogue for the India Office records at the British Library, but could not find his name. You could try the National Archives of India, or if you wanted to pursue every last avenue, the Ministry of Defence. Details in the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Indian Army http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/Indian_Army Note however, a comment previously on this Forum: “Generally there will not be files for officers who retired, as officer papers were presented to them on retirement” Matthew B. Major CAK Johnson, 1st Bengal Lancers (Skinner's Horse) Great War? Great War Forum 15 April 2015 Another possibility for further information is those editions of the Indian Army List which contained details of War Services. There was generally a Supplementary Volume in January, however some other editions also contained such information, as July 1921 available online. There is also an online edition of the January 1924 Supplementary edition. Even though he had then retired, it would be worth checking as sometimes there is historical information. See the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Indian Army List online http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/Indian_Army_List_online You would probably find some reference to him in each Indian Army List, apart from the War Services editions. Cheers Maureen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Underdown Posted 27 January , 2016 Share Posted 27 January , 2016 I believe it was practice in the Indian Army at this time to give the officer his ow records on retirement (I think that's what I've been told on the forum previously at any rate). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle George Posted 27 January , 2016 Share Posted 27 January , 2016 I hope you find this interesting, 'Operations in Waziristan 1919-1920': https://archive.org/stream/operationsinwaz00indi#page/n5/mode/2up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 27 January , 2016 Share Posted 27 January , 2016 Dear charlie962, Lieut. J. F. Petrie (Guides, attached North Waziristan Militia) was shown as Adjutant, North Waziristan Militia, in the Special List of the January 1919 Indian Army List, and as officiating Left Wing Commander, in the January 1920 Indian Army List. His completion of tenure with the NWM was noted as 29 September 1920. It is worth mentioning that the North Waziristan Militia played an important and well-documented part in the course of the Third Afghan War (see The Third Afghan War 1919: Official Account, 1926). For example, the Commandant, Major G. H. Russell (126th Infantry) was awarded the DSO for his efforts. The Colonel Guy Hamilton Russell medal group of CIE, DSO, 15 Star, BWM, Victory (MiD), IGS clasps Afghanistan NWF 1919 and Waziristan 1921-24, Defence, Croix de Guerre avec palme, is held by the National Army Museum. I hold the medals of Lieut. G. A. Swift (Bedf. R., attached Zhob Militia). The Zhob Militia cavalry took part in a dramatic rescue of Russell's retreating unit, losing Lieut. (T/Capt.) A. F. Reilly (IARO attached Zhob Militia) in the process... Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 27 January , 2016 Share Posted 27 January , 2016 Dear charlie962, Further to Capt. James Francis Petrie: The January 1922 Indian Army List has several entries for J. F. Petrie. He was promoted captain on 29 June 1920 (qualified machine-gun and Pushto, lower standard), and attached as a Company Officer with 5th Royal Gurkhe Rifles (Frontier Force) with a note: 'With 14th Sikhs'. Capt. J. F. Petrie was shown as 'Attached 14th King George's Own Ferozepore Sikhs', as was the temporary Commandant, Major Cadell, DSO, psc, who came from 45th Sikhs... Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 27 January , 2016 Author Share Posted 27 January , 2016 Maureen and David, Thanks for the depressing news that his service record probably doesn't exist! I shall try Maureens suggestion re Min Def. I have looked at some IA Lists. Would there still be some Regimental archive in the current Indian Army ? But then as noted below, which unit? 2nd Guides, 5th Gurkha, 14th Sikhs, N. Waz. Militia, and who knows perhaps somewhere else Uncle George. A good link thanks a lot. A quick look at the index, v. interesting for background but I'm not sure which 'column' he might have been with, particularly in view of Kim's notes. I shall be fascinated to read the book. Kim, Thanks for the detail. I shall look for the account you mention. Can you tell me why he would have had so many attachments ? Difficult to know where he really belonged and difficult to know which unit to follow in the operational history. I have zero information from the family side and there is nobody to ask. The IA list Apr 1922 I had seen and noted p95 that JFP was appointed to the Militia 30.9.17 and completed, as you say, 29.9.20. So I can presume he was full time N Waz Militia for this period ? Would he have applied for such an appointment or what? The IA List p305 also has JFP as '57' which I interpretted as Certified Instructor in Army Signalling. I will check. Thanks again for all your responses. At least I am moving forward with your help. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 27 January , 2016 Share Posted 27 January , 2016 Dear Charlie, By looking at the 14th Sikhs entry, I would say that the unit needed not only a new Commandant, but also an additional capable officer, pronto! Capt. Petrie obviously was such an officer, and may well have been asked for, especially... I will continue to keep an eye out for him, as it were. As far as War Diaries are concerned, these would be well worth looking at (I use a professional researcher at the National Archives). However, these War Diaries are often sparse for this post-Great War period - when everything was being cut back, officers resigning with gratuities (as he did) and the Big Show being over. Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 27 January , 2016 Share Posted 27 January , 2016 Here is a Military Medal grouping from my Collection, to a Sergeant originally serving in the 1st Battalion, The King's Royal Rifle Corps, then in the Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Light Infantry and the Indian Army. His grouping also includes his Indian General Service Medal 1908-35, with Waziristan Clasp 1921-24. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 27 January , 2016 Share Posted 27 January , 2016 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 27 January , 2016 Share Posted 27 January , 2016 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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