Frank Bottomley

[Matlock1418]

8 minutes ago, AndrewC said:

I have downloaded the medal rolls (but its like ancient greek to me) have attached the medal roll

WO-372-2-224844.pdf 287.04 kB · 0 downloads

You have clearly been visiting TNA - they put six MIC on a single frame - top left is the FB of interest [compare with the colour one I posted]

You may note that the image I posted from WFA/Fold3 also and extra includes the top of the reverse showing the disposal note - that's what alerted me to the possible situation

The MR is a page with a whole list of men and their entitlements - against which there may be notes that could be of interest in the case of FB.  MR was used to create the MIC which was required in the Medal Office stamp-shop to impress [mechanically stamp] the medals with the details

M

Edited 28 April by Matlock1418

[AndrewC]

Yes it was the TNA that had the medal roll info, will have a look on the gov site and see what that opens up, added the camel pyramid pic, I said it might be my grandad married to fb's daughter but it turns out it could be his brother joseph peace who did serve in WWII which has added a whole new line of investigation, thanks again for your help greatly appreciated.

 

[Matlock1418]

7 minutes ago, AndrewC said:

Sorry I cannot make out and/or date. 

Beyond possibly a higher/closed collar different from WW2 battledress jackets or shirts ?? - but really the quality is rather poor = ???

I think others will be similarly challenged ... but who knows?

It may perhaps later fit somewhere into your other enquiries??

M

[AndrewC]

Thanks for having a look, the photo belongs to one of the other daughters of FB's family they brought it to a family funeral and refused to hand it over, so its the best have option, I hope I can fit it into the jigsaw thats unfolding, thanks again.

[Matlock1418]

7 minutes ago, AndrewC said:

the photo belongs to one of the other daughters of FB's family they brought it to a family funeral and refused to hand it over, so its the best have option

If you are still on speaking terms ... then possibly getting a high resolution scan of the 'camels photo' would be your best option ??  That might perhaps pass muster with the holder ???

[That's really not the camels' photo - and any reference as such or similarly to family members should be firmly resisted]

Anyway ... Good luck.

M

Edited 28 April by Matlock1418

[AndrewC]

***, I don't have contact with them or even know who they are, but a twist has turned up with this https://huddersfield.exposed/wiki/Frank_Bottomley_(1889-1920) its the same photo, puzzling.. gonna try and contact the author and their source of said picture. more puzzzling https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/425218, looks like it will be a long long night.

 

Edited 28 April by AndrewC

[Bob Davies]

22 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

I think others will be similarly challenged ... but who knows?

Yes M, challenged here too.

Camel rider 3rd from left looks to be holding a Wolseley helmet in his hands. Were they used in WW2?

The Sphinx looks like it should in 1914/18, others with more knowledge may say otherwise?

Regards, Bob.

[AndrewC]

It's starting to make some sense, the camel pic 3L it must be a pith helmet, I agree on the sphinx age, lots of googleing look of Egypt WW1 is the same, so that must be FB (somewhere) gonna have to try and get a scan of the pic, thanks Bob.

 

[Bob Davies]

7 hours ago, AndrewC said:

Sorry to be replying to succh an old thread, I am doing research into my great grandfather for my Australian relatives, yes you have the correct frank Bottomley 631735, he came back home on sick leave and died a few weeks later of Malaria, the graves are still there at the chapel, does anyone have any further information on him please?, thanx in advance.

Back to the OP, this in my eyes is an RAF uniform, from which era I do not know.

If I may call upon uniform expert @FROGSMILE to cast his beady eye over it please and give us his opinion.

As @Michelle Young says, it does not look to be a WW1 era picture.

Regards, Bob.

[AndrewC]

I have found a sidehat badge of very similar size and look of the RFC WWI one as in the pic, it does look like it is an WWI airforce uniform, starting to think there are two FB's, one army and one airforce, any help appreciated thanks.

 

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Back to the OP, this in my eyes is an RAF uniform, from which era I do not know.

If I may call upon uniform expert @FROGSMILE to cast his beady eye over it please and give us his opinion.

As @Michelle Young says, it does not look to be a WW1 era picture.

Regards, Bob.

It’s a WW2 RAF uniform Bob.  You were absolutely right 👍
Unusually he’s missing his shoulder eagles, I don’t know why that might be.  Nevertheless, the absent shoulder straps and self cloth waist belt with typical frame buckle are classic features of the RAF blue uniform.

Edited 28 April by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s a WW2 RAF uniform Bob.  You were absolutely right 👍

Thank you FROGSMILE, we just need to get a better resolution picture of the soldiers on the camels next to the Sphinx.

 

2 hours ago, AndrewC said:

Yes it was the TNA that had the medal roll info, will have a look on the gov site and see what that opens up, added the camel pyramid pic, I said it might be my grandad married to fb's daughter but it turns out it could be his brother joseph peace who did serve in WWII which has added a whole new line of investigation, thanks again for your help greatly appreciated.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, AndrewC said:

Thanks guys, help appreciated, Having known great grandma and how she acted maybe she only said 10s as not to appear vulgar/well off as she was humble and VERY strict, that is what she said on numerous occasions, This is another photo of some family member who we have no idea who it is, is this the ww1 uniform and ive somehow got the picture mixed up?, thanks in advance for any help

This is the typical WW1 uniform of an artilleryman.  1903 bandolier equipment, whitened lanyard and what looks like an RFA shoulder title to me.  It’s an emergency pattern simplified jacket and too big for him, so it was good for layering.  It looks brand new, as if he’d got it specially for the portrait photograph.

Edited 28 April by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Thank you FROGSMILE, we just need to get a better resolution picture of the soldiers on the camels next to the Sphinx.

 

 

A blurred copy as you say, but I can make out long puttees on the man on camel far left, so I think it’s a WW1 photo.

Edited 28 April by FROGSMILE

[AndrewC]

Thanks guys for your help with the era of the first picture not being WWI, the "artillary guy an earlier post does seem to fit the bill as RFA 1914, do you agree?.

 

[Bob Davies]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

A blurred copy as you say, but I can make out long puttees on the man on camel far left, so I think it’s a WW1 photo.

The picture fits to WW1 in my eyes. Wolseley helmets were used in WW2 I recently discovered.

However I feel we are justified in saying it is from WW1.

We await a better resolution picture.

2 minutes ago, AndrewC said:

Thanks guys for your help with the era of the first picture not being WWI, the "artillary guy an earlier post does seem to fit the bill as RFA 1914, do you agree?.

 

I do agree.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, AndrewC said:

Thanks guys for your help with the era of the first picture not being WWI, the "artillary guy an earlier post does seem to fit the bill as RFA 1914, do you agree?.

 

I think 1915 is more likely as the whitening of the lanyard seems to have evolved.  It did not become officially encouraged as a matter of routine until 1920.

[TEW]

I'd like to check things later when I have some other access.

My initial take is that the E and EF references are likely to be batches of correspondence regarding his eligibility or who should receive his medals.

The term on the reverse disposal of seems to frequently be interpreted as 'scrap the medals'.

My thoughts are that the record office had to keep back the medals until legal ownership had been sorted out. Once that had happened the record office was able to dispose of the medals by issuing them to the rightful person.

If there's a Soldiers' Effects entry then the legatee is probably (but not always) the recipient of the medals.

I don't believe there's anything to show the medals were returned to the medal office for destruction.

However, the current medal office has admitted they don't fully understand WWI medal card references. They have in fact re-issued WWI medals in one case where the reverse has the same 'disposal of' annotation rather than the usual 'returned under King's Regulation'.

I believe in that case the originals may still be out there while the descendants have a re-issued set.

TEW

[Matlock1418]

13 hours ago, AndrewC said:

a twist has turned up with this https://huddersfield.exposed/wiki/Frank_Bottomley_(1889-1920) its the same photo, puzzling.. gonna try and contact the author and their source of said picture. more puzzzling https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/425218,

The two links seem rather closely linked with the same author - In both cases it offers "He served in Damascus and Mesopotamia and was taken prisoner but no further details of this can be found." - I wonder where that info actually came from - evidence or family story or fokelore ?? 

Though at present you probably can't see the "Story" attached from his main IWM LOTFWW Life Story opening page because of a current glitch at LOTFWW I can offer a temporary fix - To see that "Story":

Exactly highlight and copy & paste all of this bold text [including site: and the final quotemark]   

site:  https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/story “Frank Bottomley”   

into your web browser and then select from your list of 'hits' Story: Lifestory | Lives of the First World War - should get you to FB ... At least that is the current principle and temporary fix  [using G**gle highlighting and a right mouse click and Search G**gle aso works] 

M

POSTSCRIPT: For you [and for any other GWF members] wanting to see other currently inaccessible LOTFWW LifeStories "Stories" then do similarly, but replace Frank Bottomley by the names of your choice

Edited 29 April by Matlock1418
typo

[Matlock1418]

54 minutes ago, TEW said:

I'd like to check things later when I have some other access.

My initial take is that the E and EF references are likely to be batches of correspondence regarding his eligibility or who should receive his medals.

The term on the reverse disposal of seems to frequently be interpreted as 'scrap the medals'.

My thoughts are that the record office had to keep back the medals until legal ownership had been sorted out. Once that had happened the record office was able to dispose of the medals by issuing them to the rightful person.

If there's a Soldiers' Effects entry then the legatee is probably (but not always) the recipient of the medals.

I don't believe there's anything to show the medals were returned to the medal office for destruction.

However, the current medal office has admitted they don't fully understand WWI medal card references. They have in fact re-issued WWI medals in one case where the reverse has the same 'disposal of' annotation rather than the usual 'returned under King's Regulation'.

I believe in that case the originals may still be out there while the descendants have a re-issued set.

TEW Thank for your detailed reply to my 'mention' - it seems an uncertain situation.

I agree no evidence of issue [though that would normally be assumed unless otherwise noted] or of return or of re-issue on the MIC.   I am currently not convinced of any other issue being recorded [or perhaps one ever happening ??] though I cannot see the MR.

I had hoped the MR might offer more clarity over the word "Disposal" - a rather ambiguous term 100+ years on [certainly less clear than some other MIC's annotations which were more clearly for destruction].

I hope your later investigations can clarify.  Much obliged to you, I feel the OP will likely be on tenterhooks given my earlier suggested possibility [as am I, just out of interest].

M

Edited 29 April by Matlock1418
typo

[kenf48]

Perhaps back to basics regarding the medal index cards and the medal rolls. The medal index card is just that an index, the administrative references on the card are explained here https://warrecordsrevealed.com/medal-cards-understanding-the-file-numbers-used-by-medal-branch-in-the-cards-rolls/

The Medal Rolls are the document of record

He has two entries on the RFA Medal Rolls, one of which is struck through and states "Medals claimed by Regulars"

The second entry is unremarkable and there is nothing to suggest the medals were returned by any recipient who was likely to have been his stated next of kin.

Image sourced from Ancestry

They indicate that he enlisted as a Territorial Force soldier. According to the LLT:- 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-of-the-tf-artillery-in-1917/

631735 is in the series - 630001 – 635000: 320 Brigade, RFA /Brigade, 2/Highland

Looking at the cited Huddersfield R of H we have the same WW2 photograph and a reference to Silver War Badge and POW.

The only Frank Bottomley RFA in the Silver War Badge records is Bombardier 1284/785301 T.F who is listed as P of War C'p enlisted 6 August 1914 and discharged due to sickness 25.2.1919. He was issued badge number 347501

His number is in the sequence 785001 – 790000: 247 Brigade, RFA (LLT ibid)

So which Frank Bottomley is it?  Near number sampling gives us;-

The service records of 158716/58007/631730 Carter have survived in the burnt records and show he was a Derby or Group Scheme attestation mobilised 4th August 1916 and posted to RFA (T) on the 7th August and then on to No1 (TF) Artillery Training School and then to 320 Brigade as a Gunner on the 21st September 1916.  He was in 223 Brigade when admitted to 14 Field Ambulance (F & F) in August 1918.

158717/631731 Fawkes also has records a followed an identical route to carte to 320 Brigade before transferring to a Trench Mortar Battery.  He has an entry, proceeded to Mesopotamia 12.6.1917. which is struck through or perhaps underlined it's unclear.

He also has an entry showing embarkation from theatre but I''m stuck on that one

Image from FMP

158723/631732 Futty, another Derby man (attested November 1915) from Yorkshire 

His record is interesting as it includes a letter from his wife dated 29th November 1917 asking for his address as her letters keep getting returned from "320th Brigade Blacking Aylsham Norfolk" and his last letter said he was "on a ship".  His record shows he was posted to Egypt on the 27th October 1917 and embarked Devonport on 28th October (burnt) and disembarked Alexandria 18.11. (burnt) Joined G.B. Mustapha (burnt).  He was eventually posted to the BEF in April 1918.

631748 Horsfell has some interesting paperwork regarding his medical category which it was stated was A1 but he was on the HQ Staff of 320 Brigade. He was mobilised on the 9th August 1916

This gives us Frank Bottomley's mobilisation date as the beginning August 1916 and posted to the RFA between the 7th and 9th August 1916. No doubt Soldiers Effects and Craig's calculator will confirm. I suspect he also attested under the Derby or Group Scheme.  Two of those cited above were in medical category B.1.on mobilisation, therefore posted to garrison duty abroad.

The records cited above offer a tenuous connection to Egypt which was a theatre of war, but also to Mesopotamia. He could have contracted malaria in either of those theatres of war.  He is indexed as T/Cpl which I interpret as Temporary but Ancestry as Transport.

 

[Matlock1418]

33 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

The Medal Rolls are the document of record

He has two entries on the RFA Medal Rolls, one of which is struck through and states "Medals claimed by Regulars"

The second entry is unremarkable and there is nothing to suggest the medals were returned by any recipient who was likely to have been his stated next of kin.

Image sourced from Ancestry

Quite so - as you say "The Medal Rolls are the document of record" [primary record] which is why I have been pushing for it, but for 631735 ... nothing extra or definitive regarding issue to NoK or ??? ... To me still a puzzle [I've not seen "Medals claimed by Regulars" before].

33 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

The only Frank Bottomley RFA in the Silver War Badge records is Bombardier 1284/785301 T.F who is listed as P of War C'p enlisted 6 August 1914 and discharged due to sickness 25.2.1919.

So far as a disability pension record  for 785301 WFA/Fold3 have:

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

Shows a Sheffield address = ??? [that's clearly not Huddersfield, but not fantastically far away either, so I am rather wondering/puzzled!??] = the challenge of separating identical names!!

M

Edited 29 April by Matlock1418
add 631735 for clarity, and now another typo!

[TEW]

I've not read through every post but I see the OP was 9 years ago and was a war memorial ID query. Topic has changed to reflect a request for info by a relative of Bottomley?

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned is that he has two medal roll entries, one has been cancelled (struck though). This one does seem to annotate the 'Dead' part with Malaria which would confirm the Malaria death to 631735 Bottomley.

Secondly, it also states medal claimed by regular which is why it then appears on the roll referenced by the medal card

Image courtesy of Ancestry. 631735 Bottomley cancelled Medal Roll.

 

Moving on to the medal issue aspect.

The medal card is annotated E/788969/2, this is an Effects Branch reference and Soldiers' Effects uses the reference E/788969/1. Correspondence from service files I've seen that have these references usually refer to personal items being returned to family but also (99.9% of the time) state that Any medals that may be due can be sent to the same person.

His widow Rhoda is named in Soldiers Effects and it seems almost certain that she would have been entitled to his medals.

I can't see anything on the medal roll reference by the medal card, there's nothing to show anything unusual regarding returns or non-issues etc.

I believe that Rhoda was sent, received and kept his medals.

I shall try to find the other post which showed the current medal office did re-issue medals based on what I think was a misunderstanding of the disposal of medals annotation.

 

I have an example of another case where the reverse of the card has been annotated by the medal office with;

Applic' re disposal of medals by O i/c Inf Records Preston 11/3/21

In this case for Eagles his service record has a copy of the application sent in by the O i/c Inf Records Preston 11/3/21, note the date of the 1st attached letter also note they are asking who should the medal be sent to.

The Eagles case is complex as the 15 Star and BWM had already been sent out to his Father-in-Law while his mother was making a counter claim for the Victory medal.

The 2nd attached letter dated 8/4/1921 is the medal office's reply to the original application for disposal,  note it's reference connects to the medal card with EF/1/6387 (underlined in green).

It does a least show that all three medals were issued, sent out and were not returned and that the term 'disposal' formed part of a request for action on the medals.

The Eagles medal card also references Soldiers' Effects as the Father-in-Law had already received monies on Eagles' account,

Images courtesy of Ancestry

TEW

[Matlock1418]

20 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

From Western Front Association / Fold3 have a pension index card.

Rhoda Dawson BOTTOMLEY, Old Road, Holmbridge, Yorks, claimed a pension in respect of Cpl. Frank BOTTOMLEY, 631735, Royal Field Artillery

Going back to the earlier posts and @AndrewC confirming Grandma Rhoda ... I think 785301 should probably be ruled out as Andrew's relative.

M

Edited 29 April by Matlock1418

[TEW]

Rather a difficult one this, burial of a recovered man.  I remember reading the post last year and given the circumstances I felt it really wasn't important enough to raise the medal issue points.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/304376-pte-robert-malcolm-ramc-burial-report/#comment-3209260

MOD and JCCC investigation found that;

Quote

His medals had been sent to his mother after the war but were not delivered, so were returned to the Army and destroyed

And

Quote

Records uncovered during Rosie’s investigation showed that though Pte Malcolm’s medals were sent to his mother after the war, they were not delivered and so were returned and destroyed. The MOD Medal Office (MODMO) has therefore been able to reissue his 1914 Star with Clasp ‘5 Aug – 22 Nov 1914’, often referred to as ‘the Mons Star’, and the British War Medal and Victory Medal 

There's nothing actually on his medal card beyond the O i/c records requests authority to dispose of medals and two reference numbers one being to Soldiers' Effects.

I don't believe this man's medals were not delivered, returned and destroyed, it's possible his original medals are out there somewhere. Cat and pigeons springs to mind. Someone did actually put in a claim for a clasp to the 14 Star which would be an odd thing to do if you had not received any medals.

It has however set a precedent that disposal of medals means they were not issued and can now be re-issued.

Unless the medal office read this post and agree with me??

TEW