Makarov380acp Posted 28 February , 2015 Share Posted 28 February , 2015 Allow me to introduce myself. Hello! My real name is Brian and I've been fascinated with WW1 and WW2 history for quite some time! My Grandfather was a pilot in training (Kelly Airfield, TX) during WW1 however the war ended and he left the Army. Trained in Jennys! I live in Washington State in the United States. Please assist me in identifying this bayo, the markings (particularly in the 3rd picture) and matching the correct scabbard with this bayonet that I recently was given by a friend. I understand that finding an era-correct scabbard might be difficult. This bayo came with no scabbard unfortunately. Thank you! Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waggoner Posted 28 February , 2015 Share Posted 28 February , 2015 The third photo shows a "C" and Broad Arrow - a mark of Canadian ownership. I can't make out the date of manufacture in the first photo but it looks like a King's crown with "GR" indicating King George the Fifth (1910-1936). All the best, Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makarov380acp Posted 28 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 28 February , 2015 Thank you Gary! I have been scouring the net looking for that answer regarding the 3rd photo mark.! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 28 February , 2015 Share Posted 28 February , 2015 I would guess the date of manufacture to be 8 '18 (August 1918) although it is partial I think enough of the top left hand side of the 8 is present to be fairly certain (4,5,6,7 would be different - I suppose 19 would be an outside possibility but unlikely IMHO) Agree that is a rather messy Canadian ownership mark. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 28 February , 2015 Share Posted 28 February , 2015 Please assist me in identifying this bayo, the markings (particularly in the 3rd picture) and matching the correct scabbard with this bayonet that I recently was given by a friend. I understand that finding an era-correct scabbard might be difficult. This bayo came with no scabbard unfortunately. Thank you! Brian Brian, Welcome to the Forum. You have a British Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet, made by the British manufacturer J. A. Chapman of Woodside Lane, Sheffield, England, and it is one of the 300,000 Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonets made by Chapman during WW1. The markings in photo 1, show the King's Crown and the ' GR ' ( badly worn or poorly stamped ) Royal Cypher for King George V, below which is the bayonet's Pattern Date ' 1907 ', below which is the bayonet's date of manufacture, and I agree with Chris that it is probably ' 8 '18 ' for August 1918, below that is the maker's name ' CHAPMAN ' for J.A. Chapman. Chapman also used another maker's name mark abbreviation, of ' JAC '. Photo 2 shows the War Department ' Broad Arrow ' British Government ownership mark, the other markings are ' Inspection ' markings, and the ' X ' mark shows that the bayonet's blade has been subjected to and passed the ' blade bend test '. Photo 3, shows a ' Broad Arrow mark with a Capital C ', which is the ' Canada, Land Service ' mark. Originally, Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet blades were polished, some were later blued or parkerised. A List of Changes dated 4th February, 1915 stated that " for future manufacture during the duration of the war, the blades shall be sandblasted instead of being polished ". After the war, bayonet blades reverted to being polished. Photo 4, shows your bayonet as having a ' Clearance Hole ' drilled in the pommel, as was announced in the List of Changes 17692 approved on 23rd February 1916. From the look of some of the blade's stampings, your bayonet, may also at some time have undergone refurbishment. The overall length of your bayonet should be 21.75 inches ( 552 mm ) and the blade length should be 17 inches ( 452 mm ). Your Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet would have originally had the standard Mk II leather scabbard with the steel locket and chape, originals of which should still be available for you to purchase. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makarov380acp Posted 28 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 28 February , 2015 WOW! LF, thank you soooooooooooo much for that history! That's fantastic! I can't thank you enough for that information! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 February , 2015 Share Posted 28 February , 2015 Hi Brian, Nice bayonet! And yes, I would agree with LF and 4thG, it's an '18 date, just possibly a '19, although I can't recall ever seeing one that late. If you check: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=116820, in the OP there is a link to an unparkerised November 1918 Chapman very like yours, with a poorly-stamped Crown and with what look to be the same inspector markings - 7N/E. Some P.1907 buddies have commented on how a fair number of those made later in the GW are poorly stamped, although poorly-stamped examples can be found for most years Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Posted 28 February , 2015 Share Posted 28 February , 2015 Hi Brian, A nice bayonet. As for the scabbard, these are available from a company here in England. The website address is... www.worldwidearms.com Cheers, Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makarov380acp Posted 28 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 28 February , 2015 Trajan, Steve, thank you very much for your information! I have found these scabbards on Ebay here in the US for $30.00 US Dollars. Worth it? Here is the description: (His capitalization, not mine!) BRITISH MADE BLACK LEATHER SCABBARDS, WITH BUTTON - TYPE FROG STUD, ARE ALL IN GOOD CONDITION! THE BLACKLEATHER BODY'S HAVE SOME LIGHT SCRATCHES FROM USE, STORAGE WITH NORMAL AGING IS NOTICEABLE! COSMOLINE IS STILL PRESENT ON SOME OF THE SCABBARDS. THE STITCHING IS INTACT AND TIGHT ON ALL. EACH HAVE ALL THE STAPLES PRESENT IN BOTH THE CHAPE AND LOCKET ENDS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark holden Posted 28 February , 2015 Share Posted 28 February , 2015 Brian, $30 is a good price. They retail at about £25 and up to £30 here in the UK. I think the ones you show are late WW1 because of the round frog stud. TRAJAN or SS will put me right about this I am sure. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 28 February , 2015 Share Posted 28 February , 2015 Brian, $30 is a good price. They retail at about £25 and up to £30 here in the UK. I think the ones you show are late WW1 because of the round frog stud. TRAJAN or SS will put me right about this I am sure. Mark Mark, The round frog stud alone does not indicate a late WW1 scabbard. Among various wartime economies applied to P1907 bayonet scabbards which were approved on 19th November, 1915 were :- 1. The ends of the locket and chape being left square instead of being figured. 2. Circular, instead of pear shaped frog stud on the locket. 3. The leather seam left high. 4. The leather without high finish. These variations were offered to scabbard manufacturers as alternatives, and may or may not have been adopted by each and every manufacturer at the same time. So potentially, the earliest date for probably seeing a round frog stud on a Mk II P1907 scabbard was late 1915. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 28 February , 2015 Share Posted 28 February , 2015 I have found these scabbards on Ebay here in the US for $30.00 US Dollars. Brian, $30 for a P1907 scabbard is a good price. With regard to the photographs of the various scabbards, all show features associated with WW1 P1907 Bayonet scabbards, i.e. 3 rivets showing in the locket, round frog stud, staples in the locket and chape, shaped edges to the locket and chape, straight edges to the locket and chape, straight locket edge with shaped chape edge etc. Equally, each of the scabbards could potentially be post WW1 or WW2. Only, by seeing if the scabbard is dated with an impressed date, usually stamped on the rear of the scabbard close to the stitched seam, can you be absolutely sure of the scabbard's date. Also, maker's mark stampings in the locket and chape will assist in dating the scabbard. For my part, I like the look of the scabbard 3rd from the bottom, which is the same type as that shown on page 187 of Skennerton & Richardson's bayonet reference book alongside a Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet without the Hooked Quillon ( unpainted straight edged locket, round frog stud, shaped edge to the chape, both locket and chape stapled ). Good hunting, Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 February , 2015 Share Posted 28 February , 2015 I was always thinking that P.1907 round stud scabbards without rivets are probably WW1 - any comment on that? (remember, I am not a P.1907 collector!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makarov380acp Posted 1 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 1 March , 2015 THank you. I think I'll take the risk and purchase one. Last time I opened up my gun safe I had improperly stored the bayo and it damn near took one little piggy wee wee wee all the way home.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 1 March , 2015 Share Posted 1 March , 2015 THank you. I think I'll take the risk and purchase one. Last time I opened up my gun safe I had improperly stored the bayo and it damn near took one little piggy wee wee wee all the way home.... Yes, much better to have a bayonet in a scabbard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark holden Posted 1 March , 2015 Share Posted 1 March , 2015 LF, Thanks every day is a school day! regards Mark Mark, The round frog stud alone does not indicate a late WW1 scabbard. Among various wartime economies applied to P1907 bayonet scabbards which were approved on 19th November, 1915 were :- 1. The ends of the locket and chape being left square instead of being figured. 2. Circular, instead of pear shaped frog stud on the locket. 3. The leather seam left high. 4. The leather without high finish. These variations were offered to scabbard manufacturers as alternatives, and may or may not have been adopted by each and every manufacturer at the same time. So potentially, the earliest date for probably seeing a round frog stud on a Mk II P1907 scabbard was late 1915. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 1 March , 2015 Share Posted 1 March , 2015 LF, Thanks every day is a school day! regards Mark For me also. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now