cooper Posted 15 February , 2015 Share Posted 15 February , 2015 I have been lucky enough to acquire a deact 1917 dated LSA SMLE. Its a mkIII but looks as though it was refurbished in the mid/late 30's. Part of this seems to have removed the cut off (LSA continued with 3 spec till 1918) but used III* woodwork. Another chapter in its history. Here is the query: LSA used serial numbers with a letter prefix. I have found the following letters used to date on rifles made 1914-1918: K,L,M,N,O,P My 1917 LSA has an 'N' prefix then a 5 digit number beginning 52xxx. I have seen a 1916 LSA with the same 'N' and a serial beginning 55xxx. Can anything be deduced from the prefix and number in terms of date? Might mine be an early 1917 example manufactured in the same batch as the 1916 dated reciever. What might be the amount of time from manufacture to issue? Just trying to understand a little more on my SMLE. I must admit these weapons are iconic and a real signature piece of WW1 and i feel honoured to be able to own one. I would be interested in any comments you might have. Thanks, Cooper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 15 February , 2015 Share Posted 15 February , 2015 LSA used serial numbers with a letter prefix. I have found the following letters used to date on rifles made 1914-1918: K,L,M,N,O,P My 1917 LSA has an 'N' prefix then a 5 digit number beginning 52xxx. I have seen a 1916 LSA with the same 'N' and a serial beginning 55xxx Cooper, London Small Arms used the following prefix lettering for their rifles' serial Numbers :- K - 1903 - 1907 K & L - 1907 - 1915 M - 1915 M N O P - 1915 - 1918 Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 15 February , 2015 Share Posted 15 February , 2015 Any chance of pics? OK so my data (also that in Stratton) suggests that N did indeed span 1916/17 I am not sure where LF's list comes from but the observed serial data reported in Stratton (v1 p124/5) shows 1903-1913 -L 1914 - ? 1915 - M 1916 - M-N 1917 - N-O 1918 - O-P The same dataset shows the changeover to MkIII* at LSA happened somewhere between O87836 (the latest observed MkIII) and P5795 (the earliest observed MkIII*) So that is consistent with the prefix bridging two production years. Although interesting I need to check - I think my LSAs may conflict with this data! (this just struck me!) I do not believe very much can be deduced about an individual rifle's life from this, in fact it is difficult to determine anything about a particular rifle's service without consistent provenance which is almost always lacking. The time from production to issue could vary massively depending on need. Some were clearly stockpiled for various reasons, earmarked for shipping to distant theatres, supplying allies etc. In general one might assume that early in the war when demand was outstripping supply that issue would have been more rapid than later when production was keeping up.surpassing demand. As a maker LSA's production was actually quite low only about 430,000 rifles between 1907-1918. I believe I have read (although I cannot find the reference now) that one of the reasons that LSA continued to produce the MkIII was that many of their rifles went to the Royal Navy but I cannot substantiate that at present, but if accurate that too might affect the time between production and issue. Is the rifle marked with anything to indicate a 1930s FTR? If anything I would have expected cutoffs to be reinstalled rather than removed during that period. If it was a wartime (either war) FTR then removal of the cutoff would have been common. One indicator of this might be the barrel date. Is the rifle fitted with the original barrel or has it been replaced? Barrels are usually dated on the lower left side. You will need to remove the upper handguard to look - this often also reveals a lot of other stampings that may be of interest. Pics would be good! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 16 February , 2015 Share Posted 16 February , 2015 I am not sure where LF's list comes from Ian Skennerton - ' The Lee-Enfield ' - page 558. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 16 February , 2015 Share Posted 16 February , 2015 Ian Skennerton - ' The Lee-Enfield ' - page 558. Regards, LF Thanks - that's the new edition right - still haven't got mine back from loaning it out! I just checked my listings and now I have to check - on paper my 1914 LSA is listed as having a J prefix... which on the surface would challenge both lists! (although I suspect a typo on my part!) Chris EDIT: and that's why I love Enfields...I had a (poor) snap - no typo. a 1914 LSA MkIII with a J prefix - which would appear to contradict both listings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooper Posted 16 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 February , 2015 Pics of my lsa. More to foĺlow. The cut off slot appears to be unmarked, well certainly not used for a very long time. See other pics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooper Posted 16 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 February , 2015 This time with pics! More images Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooper Posted 16 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 February , 2015 The barrel has the correct number but has a mark of '36 which i presumed was a rework date. Could it be the date of the barrel? If the refurb was done (no ftr marks) in ww2 then the spec would be okay. It is isnt matching numbers other than barrel and reciever, however it has been in this configuration for many years. It doesnt have any of the lsa's 'normal' late use specs, ie volley sights, early rear sight (1916+ sight fitted) etc. The piling swivel will be removed, i put it on before researching properly. I have no intention of restoring it to the original configuration as it as changed over the years, therefore a good example of the time served for these rifles. Cooper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 16 February , 2015 Share Posted 16 February , 2015 An interesting set of Birmingham Proof House. Birmingham Nitro Proof X 2 (one of them for a shotgun), Birmingham Magazine Restriction, and Birmingham Deactivation. It looks like it was Proofed, converted to a shotgun and Proofed as a shotgun (with a restricted magazine so as qualify as Section 2), and then deactivated. On the subject of the shotgun conversion, is it now possible to remove the magazine? It will have (should have) been restricted and welded in place for the MR mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooper Posted 16 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 February , 2015 Thanks for the reply. It was a .410 shotgun until deactivated, although not an indian one. Any ideas on the '36, could that be a barrel date? Regards, Cooper The magazine is now removeable but originally it was 'blocked'. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Posted 16 February , 2015 Share Posted 16 February , 2015 A nice looking example of the LSA SMLE... I am lucky enough to own an LSA No1 Mk1* (1906) which was converted (almost) to Mk111 spec - but without the charger bridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooper Posted 16 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 February , 2015 A great pic of my LSA showing the wood which shows a beautiful rich patina. Where its been handled under under the fore end, it has rubbed silky smooth with years of handling. I will post another pic of the cut off and wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooper Posted 16 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 February , 2015 A closer image of the cut off detail. A 1906 1** sounds nice. Have you any images? They are a beautiful piece of engineering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 16 February , 2015 Share Posted 16 February , 2015 Indeed excellent looking wood on that one. To answer your earlier question yes the '36 is the barrel date. I have never been able to ascertain definitively (others may know) whether this is a production date or the date at which it was installed on the rifle. I have seen "new" apparently uninstalled (NOS) barrels which are dated so I tend to think the former. Stevie - does your MkI* have a CR serial number? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooper Posted 16 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 February , 2015 Thanks for the update on the barrel. You cant really tell i have problems with uploading images! 4th time lucky. Anyway, you can see the cut off slot behind the wood. Cooper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 16 February , 2015 Share Posted 16 February , 2015 Cooper, Nice rifle, it is good to own such an iconic piece of history, even as a deact. My 1916 Enfield made SMLE is a great thing to have and handle, again deactivated. Am also lucky enough to have an 1871 London Small Arms 3 band Snider rifle (first breech loader in service with the British Army), mine is a militia or volunteer weapon to full military spec., another beautifully made item. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 16 February , 2015 Share Posted 16 February , 2015 I've got a 1912 SMLE by LSA (deact sadly) which is numbered L35826. Over the L had been stamped the Enfield D and the woodwork has the same D so it was rebuilt at some stage but still has all matching numbers on the receiver and bolt but not the nosecap. Note the Sold Out of Service arrows. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooper Posted 16 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 February , 2015 A very nice rifle. Matching numbers and the history of the rebuild. A great item Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 16 February , 2015 Share Posted 16 February , 2015 I reckon that ll you guys with deacts should join LERA. (I am not a member I just know them well.) Then you could have the fun of firing these rifles. You can often tell LERA people by their wide grins. A very friendly lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 16 February , 2015 Share Posted 16 February , 2015 I reckon that ll you guys with deacts should join LERA. (I am not a member I just know them well.) Then you could have the fun of firing these rifles. You can often tell LERA people by their wide grins. A very friendly lot. I've had an FAC in the past and have shot a few SMLE's so I know about the grin! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 16 February , 2015 Share Posted 16 February , 2015 John (Gunner Bailey) What sort of rear sight protector is on your rifle? It appears to be a later pattern symetrical (Indian) one without the offset or is the picture deceiving me? (or is it on backwards?) Great to see these pictures! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 17 February , 2015 Share Posted 17 February , 2015 Hi Chris You are right. I do know some of the history of this gun. It was bought along with a whole pallet of SMLE's in the 1990s and forgotten in the gunsmiths storage. They were found again about three years ago and some were selected for shooting market and others no doubt with worn bores were selected for the de-act market. I know the gunsmith and he is meticulous about getting the end finish right, but is probably not worried about the historic look. So possibly a damaged sight protector was replaced. The sight itself is broad arrow marked and looks original. Here's a close up. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Posted 17 February , 2015 Share Posted 17 February , 2015 I just love these rifles. They are an absolute classic, and probably the finest (and fastest) bolt-action military rifles ever made. When I was in N I in 1971/72 we were still using the Lee Enfield No4T in .303. The problem was that so were the other side! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete_C Posted 17 February , 2015 Share Posted 17 February , 2015 Hi Just to confuse matters further, I'll throw my 1915 LSA Mk III into the mix - serial number 9916 and no prefix. A handsome looking rifle converted to .22RF, most likely after the war, by Parker-Hale. The rifle has all matching numbers, including the original 1914 dated .303 barrel which has been lined with a .22 tube or Parkerifled as it was known. The engraved brass plate screwed to the butt reveals the rifle was awarded as 3rd Prize in the 1932 Country Life, Public Schools Competition. The butt is from a 'Long Lee Enfield', clearly chosen for its attractive grain. Maybe the lack of a letter prefix to the serial number ties in with the '1914 - ?' from Stratton, quoted by Chris. A 1915 receiver and 1914 barrel would suggest late 1914, early 1915 manufacture. Cheers Manxy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Posted 17 February , 2015 Share Posted 17 February , 2015 A lovely rifle, and I would be interested in seeing a close-up of the volley sight plate if you could oblige? I wonder what 1st prize was? Cheers, Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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