10th Hussars patrol uniform

[cadmaster]

I have a small collection of military uniforms, mostly army, and recently acquired a blue patrol jacket. It is clearly older than the Staybrite Signals buttons that are on it now and has the upright collar closed with a single wide 'hook & eye' that I have only seen before on a pre-WW1 greatcoat, so I suspect that this of similar vintage. The white detachable patrol collar has 'XRH' handwritten on it, which is why I think it is 10th Hussars.

I would like to restore it to it's proper configuration, so I am seeking information on the correct buttons and collar dogs for that period. I believe the buttons would be 'ball' type, POW feathers over XRH? Would the cuff buttons also be ball - I have a RHA patrol jacket with ball buttons on the front but domed cuff buttons.

What collar dogs would this have had - there are two piercings on each side, placed vertically - I would expect POW feathers with 10th Hussars scroll below, but what material (bronze, silver, gilt)?

Would this have chain epaulettes?

[Steven Broomfield]

I've sent you a PM

[Jerry B]

Some pictures of it would be useful. I have a pre WWI example to the Hampshires, though how many difference there would be between infantry and Hussars is not known to me. Interestingly my example never had collar dogs fitted to it.

[FROGSMILE]

Some pictures of it would be useful. I have a pre WWI example to the Hampshires, though how many difference there would be between infantry and Hussars is not known to me. Interestingly my example never had collar dogs fitted to it.

Collar badges were not originally worn with blue patrols (it was intended that buttons would be the only jacket insignia in that order of dress), although one or two regiments did so just to be different. It was not until the 1950s pattern with pleated chest pockets (the earlier type had no pleats) that they began to be worn as a matter of course. Cavalry units often added a coloured collar and shoulder chains with this latter pattern to give themselves a more distinct identity.

[Jerry B]

Not totally certain of the date on these two images, one of 3RDG from my collection of period images and one from another source of 10thRH, both circa WW1 I think and both with collar badges being worn on what I assume are "blues" uniforms.

[Jerry B]

Two members of the Brecknocks in"blues" I think and again circa WW1.

[Steven Broomfield]

Jerry: where did you get the picture of the 10th Hussars Sergeant in Post 5?

[Jerry B]

Jerry: where did you get the picture of the 10th Hussars Sergeant in Post 5?

It was posted in a thread about the 3dg picture of mine that I started on the british badge forum. I realised with hindsight that I should have credited it, though it was uncredited when posted so I am not sure who the image originated with. If it is your Steven, then I am sorry, but it was not you whom posted it. If you want to discuss this by pm perhaps.

[Steven Broomfield]

No problem: it's a picture from a set in the archives of the KRH, and the subject (whose name we don't know) was the Troop Sergeant of Lieutenant the Earl if Airlie at Ypres in May 1915. It was used in a piece written (by me) for the museum website, and then posted (by our Assistant Curator) on FB, so I suspect it's arrived from that source. Quite happy for it to be "out there"; I just wondered if you knew anything more about it (like the chap's name!).

We have started water-marking things, though

[Jerry B]

No problem: it's a picture from a set in the archives of the KRH, and the subject (whose name we don't know) was the Troop Sergeant of Lieutenant the Earl if Airlie at Ypres in May 1915. It was used in a piece written (by me) for the museum website, and then posted (by our Assistant Curator) on FB, so I suspect it's arrived from that source. Quite happy for it to be "out there"; I just wondered if you knew anything more about it (like the chap's name!).

We have started water-marking things, though

Thanks Steven, I did not have the background on him. I also watermark many of my images, though I don't always remember to do it and like this I have to edit them later. though bolting stable doors...... does spring to mind.

[FROGSMILE]

Not totally certain of the date on these two images, one of 3RDG from my collection of period images and one from another source of 10thRH, both circa WW1 I think and both with collar badges being worn on what I assume are "blues" uniforms.

We are into nomenclature now and this is always a difficult area. However, to be correct Blue Patrols at that time were an officers uniform and it is those that I am referring to when saying that generally no collar badges were worn.

The two soldiers you have posted are wearing the blue serge patrol frock that was introduced for other ranks in the mid 1890s. It differed from the officers blue patrols in that it was made of a thick and coarse woollen serge and had only chest pockets. It was more commonly known as a blue serge jumper. There were no pockets on the skirt. Collar badges were worn. The infantry also wore a similar garment, but not always with collar badges. Notice that the chest pocket flaps were mitred. This garment was phased out at home between the two World Wars, although mounted units abroad clung on to them via the judicious use of native tailors and Indian Establishment dress and clothing regulations.

The officers Blue Patrol uniform was made of fine blue serge or tartan (a type of cloth) and had patch pockets on both chest and skirt (i.e. x 4) and no pleats on either. Their were four periods of use, with each date marking a variation in pattern. 1890s, 1911 (and in 1913 an open collar type saw brief use), 1940 and 1957 to date. Only the latter introduced pleats on the chest pockets and collar badges for all (less Rifle regiments and Foot Guards).

[FROGSMILE]

Two members of the Brecknocks in"blues" I think and again circa WW1.

Notice the rectangular pocket flaps. These are either blue dyed service dress, or a very new and thus dark khaki,service dress most likely the former although it is difficult to be sure with B&W photography. They are neither blue patrols, nor blue frocks.

[Jerry B]

Notice the rectangular pocket flaps. These are either blue dyed service dress, or a very new and thus dark khaki,service dress most likely the former although it is difficult to be sure with B&W photography. They are neither blue patrols, nor blue frocks.

As I posted "blues I think" so no problem with being corrected and in some ways SD or over dyed SD makes them even more interesting if either of these types or "blues" with collars as all would be relatively uncommon.

[FROGSMILE]

As I posted "blues I think" so no problem with being corrected and in some ways SD or over dyed SD makes them even more interesting if either of these types or "blues" with collars as all would be relatively uncommon.

Yes of course Jerry, I am just trying to help with pointers as to how you can ID these different items of uniform and differentiate between officers and ORs terminology.

[Jerry B]

I certainly would never have thought of over dyed SD for these two members of the Brecknocks. I do appreciate you taking the time to offer pointers on the differences between the various types of "jackets" worn. I think the blue serge patrol frocks for OR's is correct for these as they do not appear to have skirt pockets, though I am not sure what shape pockets they should have on the chest. The cuffs have a detail that I don't think are typical for OR's SD so another featrue that suggests the blue serge patrol frock for OR's.

[Jerry B]

Skirt and cuff detail

[cadmaster]

_{My jacket has four unpleated patch pockets with mitred flaps, so appears to be the early officer's version. The single wide collar fastening would seem to point to the 1911 period rather than WW2. However, it does have piercings for collar dogs, though these may be a late addition. SB sent me a picture in a PM showing collar dogs pre-WW1. It also appears to show chain epaulettes attached over ordinary cloth ones - would this be true?}

_Regards

_Martyn

[Steven Broomfield]

I will ask Toby Brayley to post the relevant picture tomorrow (once he's watermarked it ) as I seem unable to add such a mark at home on my laptop. The picture in question was taken in (I think) about 1911 in India or 1912/13 in S Africa.

[FROGSMILE]

I certainly would never have thought of over dyed SD for these two members of the Brecknocks. I do appreciate you taking the time to offer pointers on the differences between the various types of "jackets" worn. I think the blue serge patrol frocks for OR's is correct for these as they do not appear to have skirt pockets, though I am not sure what shape pockets they should have on the chest. The cuffs have a detail that I don't think are typical for OR's SD so another featrue that suggests the blue serge patrol frock for OR's.

The usual frocks had three point so-called 'scalloped' pocket flaps and a pleat on the pocket. The Brecknock boys have rectangular pocket flaps the same as the 02 pattern serge jackets.

[FROGSMILE]

Skirt and cuff detail

The cuffs appear to have pointed, or 'mitred' facing which was a feature of some patterns of blue frock. I can only surmise that these might be a special (or perhaps cadet) pattern worn when uniforms were difficult to come by during the early months of WW1. I do recall that many of Kitcheners Divisions had special uniforms made, often funded by City Corporations, until such time as the War Office could kit them out in khaki. The Welsh Division (originally to be a Corps) was to be clothed in a special shade of Welsh grey!

[FROGSMILE]

_{My jacket has four unpleated patch pockets with mitred flaps, so appears to be the early officer's version. The single wide collar fastening would seem to point to the 1911 period rather than WW2. However, it does have piercings for collar dogs, though these may be a late addition. SB sent me a picture in a PM showing collar dogs pre-WW1. It also appears to show chain epaulettes attached over ordinary cloth ones - would this be true?}

_Regards

_Martyn

Yes the unpleated chest pockets are from the earlier pattern, the earliest of which (late 1890s) also had a slightly higher collar. I suspect that the collar badges were retro-fitted, perhaps for the later use by the Royal Signals. Shoulder chains were generally fitted over the top of the original cloth shoulder straps. The chains had a strict specification and had to withstand a downwards cut from a sabre of so many pounds pressure.

[Jerry B]

The cuffs appear to have pointed or mitred finish which was a feature of some patterns of blue frock. I can only surmise that these might be a special pattern worn when uniforms were difficult to come by during WW1. I do recall that many of Kitcheners Divisions had special uniforms made, often funded by City Corporations, until such time as the War Office could kit them out in khaki. The Welsh Division (originally to be a Corps) was to be clothed in a special shade of Welsh grey!

Thanks as always Frogsmile, you knowledge and willingness to help is once again appreciated.

Sorry ot have highjacked the thread starters thread.

Back to the original topic, my officers blue has the large single hook fitting on the collar and is dated to circa 1910/11, so that goes well with that under discussion here.

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks as always Frogsmile, you knowledge and willingness to help is once again appreciated.

Sorry ot have highjacked the thread starters thread.

Back to the original topic, my officers blue has the large single hook fitting on the collar and is dated to circa 1910/11, so that goes well with that under discussion here.

The 1911 pattern officers Blue Patrol jacket, did have a single hook fastening at the collar yes, with a cloth stock (flap) on the opposite side.

In 1912-13 an alternative style with open rever (collar) worn with white shirt and black tie was introduced but interrupted by the war.

The enclosed image shows the 1940 pattern.

[Toby Brayley]

Not much to come from me as it has already been covered.

This is the picture that Steven refers to. Happy for the image to be shared around, just please keep the watermark. c1911-1913. A fine study of both ORs and Officers Patrol uniform. Note the different styles mentioned in previous posts.

The collar badges would have been of the standard P.W.O type (minus the "10th Hussars Scroll") as per the picture below (this is a 1940s officers example. It is not staybrite, but a rather fancy guilt style. The style did not change and is still in use today. Note there are two types in use in the above picture).

The ORs ranks style with a brass crown.

The Ball buttons would have been of the XRH type, large for the chest, pockets and shoulder (as per examples here in the archive). The smaller example would have been for use on the cuff detail.

Detail of the shoulder chains. Full colonel, with guilt crown and XRH shoulder title. These chains are sewn on the the shoulders, the ball button (out of shot) is sewn onto the chain.

[Steven Broomfield]

Cheers Toby.