Highland uniform conundrum - what unit is he in....?

[Ron Abbott]

Whatever else he's wearing, it's clearly a Gordons cap badge and likely to be a senior NCOs/Officers one at that.

However, if it's just a photographic studio 'get up' and not a genuine uniform, then perhaps his name and unit (22 Royal Fusiliers) are genuine?

What if it wasn't 22nd Bn. Royal Fusiliers but rather 2/2nd (City of London) Battalion (Royal Fusiliers)?

Here are two possibilities to get the ball rolling:-

Albert Brooks L/17810

Alfred Brooks 232448

[FROGSMILE]

Whatever else he's wearing, it's clearly a Gordons cap badge and likely to be a senior NCOs/Officers one at that.

However, if it's just a photographic studio 'get up' and not a genuine uniform, then perhaps his name and unit (22 Royal Fusiliers) are genuine?

What if it wasn't 22nd Bn. Royal Fusiliers but rather 2/2nd (City of London) Battalion (Royal Fusiliers)?

Here are two possibilities to get the ball rolling:-

Albert Brooks L/17810

Alfred Brooks 232448

That seems like a good line to pursue to me Ron, and the names give a good start.

[Ron Abbott]

Still can't locate the photos I've previously seen of the pipers of a Gordons battalion wearing three tassled sporrans, but I did chance upon these of Gordons Pipe-Majors wearing unusual three tassled sporrans (albeit during different eras):-

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyunits/britishinfantry/gordonsband1903.htm

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyunits/britishinfantry/gordonsband1957.htm

The P/M in the first photo is likely Pipe-Major Kenneth MacLeod, DCM.

[gordon92]

Still can't locate the photos I've previously seen of the pipers of a Gordons battalion wearing three tassled sporrans, but I did chance upon these of Gordons Pipe-Majors wearing unusual three tassled sporrans (albeit during different eras):-

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyunits/britishinfantry/gordonsband1903.htm

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyunits/britishinfantry/gordonsband1957.htm

The P/M in the first photo is likely Pipe-Major Kenneth MacLeod, DCM.

The first photo you have linked is indeed Sergeant Piper (Pipe Major) Kenneth MacLeod. See named photo below of Pipe Majors at the Highland Gathering, Agra, 1912.

[headgardener]

Thanks to everyone for their comments so far. I'll have to be quick right now, but I'll post again later.

Here's the unit according to the back of the card:

I'll get a list of likely 'A. Brooks' and see if that turns anything up.

Here's another 3-tassel sporran (photo dated 1917), with a similar tartan to Brooks:

It's a shame that the cap-badge is obscured.

[gordon92]

Thanks to everyone for their comments so far. I'll have to be quick right now, but I'll post again later.

Here's the unit according to the back of the card:

one.jpg

I'll get a list of likely 'A. Brooks' and see if that turns anything up.

Here's another 3-tassel sporran (photo dated 1917), with a similar tartan to Brooks:

one.jpg

It's a shame that the cap-badge is obscured.

headgardener

The most recent photo that you have posted is that of a Scots Guards piper. Pipers from a number of regiments have worn 3-tasseled sporrans at various times. Those that come to mind include Scots Guards, Royal Scots, KOSB, Scottish Rifles, HLI, and Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders.

[Ron Abbott]

Still can't locate the photos I've previously seen of the pipers of a Gordons battalion wearing three tassled sporrans, but I did chance upon these of Gordons Pipe-Majors wearing unusual three tassled sporrans (albeit during different eras):-

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyunits/britishinfantry/gordonsband1903.htm

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyunits/britishinfantry/gordonsband1957.htm

The P/M in the first photo is likely Pipe-Major Kenneth MacLeod, DCM.

[Ron Abbott]

I think the second photo may be of Pipe Major Calum A Campbell, however I don't want to go off at tangents!

Of interest between these two photos and the original photo that is of issue on this thread, is not just a three-tassled sporran; but that these two Pipe Majors are also wearing 'full clan hose' as opposed to the usual Gordons red/black or red/white diced hose (depending on period).

[gordon92]

I think the second photo may be of Pipe Major Calum A Campbell, however I don't want to go off at tangents!

Of interest between these two photos and the original photo that is of issue on this thread, is not just a three-tassled sporran; but that these two Pipe Majors are also wearing 'full clan hose' as opposed to the usual Gordons red/black or red/white diced hose (depending on period).

I have never been able to obtain a clear answer as to why the Gordons changed to red-white hose in the early 1950s from red-black. Would you be aware of the rationale for this switch?

[Ron Abbott]

Sorry, no idea....but I'm sure the fashion afficionados would say that it certainly helps brighten up the uniform!

The Gordons (or 92nd) originally wore red and white hose but at some point (in the late 1800s?) changed to red and black and then back again to red and white in the mid 1950s.

[headgardener]

Chris, Ron, Gordon92, Frogsmile - thank you again for your interest, and for your instructive comments on the photo in the OP and on the finer points of highland uniform in general. I have to say that I really value the sort of discussion that we've been having here.

Chris - I can't see him being RSF, the shoulder-title's clearly say RF rather than RSF, and the annotation on the back of the card seems to be quite unambiguous (although his whole uniform does seem to be rather ambiguous, of course!).

What I understand from your comments is that the cap-badge would appear to be that of an officer (or SNCO), and that it appears to clash with the tartan of the kilt.

I hope you haven't all got bored with this thread yet as I had a couple of quick questions.

Firstly, the 'full clan hose' (which is a term that I had never heard before) - what would it denote? Is it only worn by pipers? Or SNCO's? Was it obsolete during WW1?

Secondly, the fact that Brooks described himself as being 22nd Royal Fusiliers is matched by the shoulder title visible in the photo (RF + grenade - sorry I can't get a clearer image to post here, but I've had the original image under a very strong lens and I believe that there is no doubt on this point). Like Ron (post #26), I wonder whether at least his regiment (22/RF) might be genuine, and I'm trying to think of ways which might explain what he's doing wearing a kilt in Peterhead. I can't see any reason for him to add his own shoulder titles to a studio prop uniform (which is correctly cut-away for wearing with a kilt, of course). The cap doesn't match his apparent rank or his kilt, so if we take away the cap is there any way that the uniform could be 'right'? For example, might an RF man attached/detached to a highland unit wear the host regiment's uniform while remaining badged as RF? I think that happened to Corps men serving with regiments, and wondered whether this might apply to a man from a disbanded battalion (I understand that the transport sections of disbanded battalions remained in existence).

Any thoughts.....?

[headgardener]

Frogsmile, Ron and Chris all suggested that I might search for him in the MIC's. I had previously tried, but didn't really know where to start. Here are all the 'A. Brooks' who are listed on the MIC's as serving with RF - all are Pte unless specifically listed otherwise (I've only got access to TNA's database I'm afraid, so won't be able to check whether any served in 22/RF until I get to a local library).

Albert BROOKS 1447 (MIC indicates 8/RF, but that would probably be the battalion he went to F&F with in 1915)

Albert BROOKS 9450 (MIC indicates 2/RF, subsequently 38366 DCLI)

Archibald BROOKS GS/75002

Arthur BROOKS S/7145

Arthur BROOKS GS/13177

Ambrose BROOKS 26238 (MIC indicates 7/RF, and there's another MIC presumably to the same man, listed as Ambrose S. BROOKS - GS/2623)

Archie B. BROOKS GS/58978

Arthur C. BROOKS (no service number listed, rank: Pte, MIC indicates 13/RF)

Arthur P. BROOKS GS/2553 (subsequently 36230 Grenadier Guards - there's another MIC in the name of Arthur Pawney BROOKS, presumably the same man?)

William E.A. BROOKS TR/7040 rank: Sgt.

Albert E. BROOKS GS/105980, rank: Cpl (previously F/331 Middx Rgt, subsequently 407492 Labour C)

Alfred BROOKS 37512 (subsequently 418119 Labour C)

Arthur BROOKS 125220 (previously 2963 & 41360 Manchester Rgt, and 49870 Labour C)

Herbert A. BROOKS 229370 (previously 200869 E. Kent Rgt, subsequently 1/London Rgt)

William A. BROOKS 132917 (previously 26849 KRRC, 414200 Labour C, subsequently GS/50481 ASC)

[rolt968]

Of no use I'm afraid, but 23 Royal Fusiliers had a pipe band (according to Pipes of War).

R.

[headgardener]

Just a couple of thoughts regarding 'prop' uniforms.

I can see from your various comments that there are some serious questions regarding the various elements of the uniform in the OP (the cap badge, mismatch between cap badge and apparent rank, mismatch between cap badge and kilt, mismatch between the cap badge and shoulder-title). There may also be an issue with the fact that he's wearing 'full clan hose', and I'd really appreciate some further advice on this specific point. I'm struck by the fact that the shoulder title matches the annotation on the reverse. The brassard is also an odd touch - I gather that a blank coloured brassard would typically indicate some role in which the wearer is employed.

My experience of 'prop' photos (and I think we've all seen plenty on GWF) is that they fall into 2 categories: those that are clearly a 'joke', and those that attempt to impress or deceive. Generally, the 'joke' ones are easy to spot - theatrical poses and crazy mismatches of badges on ill-fitting uniforms, parts of which are often missing or are worn incorrectly. The other group are trickier to spot, but generally give the game away by an over-reliance on badges, medals and/or emblems, or on elaborate and often obsolete pieces of uniform. I struggle to see either category reflected in Brooks' uniform. He seems well turned-out and largely 'badge-free' except for a very unimpressive brassard. The worst that I can say is that I wonder, were he to straighten his right arm, whether his sleeve might be a bit too long.

Not really relevant, but I suspect that this image from my collection might show someone wearing a 'prop' uniform...... What do you reckon....?!

[headgardener]

Of no use I'm afraid, but 23 Royal Fusiliers had a pipe band (according to Pipes of War).

R.

Hi Rolt - Thanks for your comment. Yes, I did wonder whether he had something to do with the 23/RF pipe band and that he simply wrote "22nd" by accident. I'll look for men from 23rd as well, just in case.

[headgardener]

On the subject of hose, I notice that one or two people doubted that Brooks is wearing hose tabs. I think a distinct line is visible intersecting the dicing just below the top of the sock (where it's folded down). It would suggest that the tab is sited at the front of the sock, like this example:

I'm not sure whether that indicates anything.....

headgardener

The most recent photo that you have posted is that of a Scots Guards piper. Pipers from a number of regiments have worn 3-tasseled sporrans at various times. Those that come to mind include Scots Guards, Royal Scots, KOSB, Scottish Rifles, HLI, and Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders.

Gordon92 - many thanks for pointing this out. I'll post a separate thread on this individual in due course.

[4thGordons]

Its a minor point but I actually do not think this is an SNCO/Officer pattern Gordon's badge. I think it is a standard one. I have well over a hundred Gordons pics and the 3D versions are far more 3D to my mind than this one appears to be. The antlers and stag's nose are far more prominent that this appears to be to me.

I am not sure that gets us far but for what it is worth....

On the "dress up" uniform - I wonder if this was really that common. It certainly happened of course, (for example I have several photos of women in men's uniforms) but I get the impression that it is often used in discussions like this as a catch-all explanation for something that otherwise seems inexplicable or contravenes regulations or expectations etc. It's the equivalent of the archeologists "probably of ritual significance" which to me usually translates as - "I have no idea what this is or why it is here" Personally I think it was far less common than tends to be assumed and that vagaries/mistakesin "uniform" (sic) issue/supply/dress/use are more likely to be explanation.

Chris

[anderston]

This might be relevant,or maybe not:

CENSUS 1901:

At 15 Low Street,Peterhead:

ALLAN BROOKS,age "7 months" with parents Robert and Jessie Brooks,and siblings Maggie,George,and William.

(William,incidentally,was killed 13 Nov.1916 whilst serving with the Gordon Highlanders.

Found the following MIC:

Pte.ALAN J.BROOKS,266773,Gordon Highlanders,kia 26 March 1918.(son of Mr W.Brooks,16 St.Mary Street,Peterhead.

Going back to the photograph of A.Brooks,does nobody else think that his sporran has 4 tassels - it makes sense,as the one we cannot see at the far side would balance it off nicely.I have seen a number of strange old sporrans on Ebay recently with 4,and even 5,tassels in a row,and they are generally for pipe bands,or OTCs.Any chance this could be the uniform for the Aberdeen University OTC or an Aberdeenshire School OTC?

Chris(Glasgow)

[rolt968]

This might be relevant,or maybe not:

CENSUS 1901:

At 15 Low Street,Peterhead:

ALLAN BROOKS,age "7 months" with parents Robert and Jessie Brooks,and siblings Maggie,George,and William.

(William,incidentally,was killed 13 Nov.1916 whilst serving with the Gordon Highlanders.

Found the following MIC:

Pte.ALAN J.BROOKS,266773,Gordon Highlanders,kia 26 March 1918.(son of Mr W.Brooks,16 St.Mary Street,Peterhead.

Going back to the photograph of A.Brooks,does nobody else think that his sporran has 4 tassels - it makes sense,as the one we cannot see at the far side would balance it off nicely.I have seen a number of strange old sporrans on Ebay recently with 4,and even 5,tassels in a row,and they are generally for pipe bands,or OTCs.Any chance this could be the uniform for the Aberdeen University OTC or an Aberdeenshire School OTC?

Chris(Glasgow)

Aberdeen University OTC was unusual. There was a infantry company which was U Company of 4 Gordon Highlanders. The actual OTC was a field ambulance section. Somewhere on the forum someone gave me a link to a site with pictures.

Robert Gordon's doesn't seem to have had an OTC at the time. I can't think of an other Aberdeenshire school which would have.

R.

Edit:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=222388&hl=

R.

[rolt968]

On the subject of hose, I notice that one or two people doubted that Brooks is wearing hose tabs. I think a distinct line is visible intersecting the dicing just below the top of the sock (where it's folded down). It would suggest that the tab is sited at the front of the sock, like this example:

one.jpg

I'm not sure whether that indicates anything.....

Gordon92 - many thanks for pointing this out. I'll post a separate thread on this individual in due course.

I also think there are tabs. I don't think they have the Gordon Highlanders' loop at the top. See the tabs on the piper in post #11 and the band im #21.

R.

[Ron Abbott]

Full clan hose? Basically a term that's used quite a lot in the piping and highland dancing world to refer to hose that are made to match the tartan.....as opposed to military style diced hose which could be red/white, red/black or red/green (in the case of the pipers of the Scots Guards and the Queens Own Cameron Highlanders) and may bear no resemblance to the tartan worn (as is the case with the Gordons).

In more modern times, the pipers of the RHF and the KOSB (if memory serves me correct) have worn clan hose as part of their uniform rather than diced hose.

There are a number of photos available showing the pipe-majors and pipers of the Gordon Highlanders wearing full clan hose, although normally with buckled brogues.

I'm not sure, but perhaps they could have been worn as standard uniform by one or other of the territorial/militia units as well?

Comments re. Aberdeen University Officer Training Corps. Yes, the pipers (and drummers) therein have worn and still do; a uniform based on that of the Gordon Highlanders however they wear their own cap badge on the glengarry which consists of a boar's head with motto, 'non confundar' and NOT a Gordon Highlanders cap badge. They are not similar in appearance.

I'm not sure whether it is still the case but when I was a piper in the AUOTC, the P/M, D/M and P/SGT wore old ex-Gordons P/M sporrans with a beautiful brass cantle and bells. However, all sporrans had only two tassles.

I don't know what uniform the AUOTC men of U Coy, 4 Gordons would have worn back then. Sorry.

[4thGordons]

U Coy were not a OTC they were a company of a Territorial Battalion. This is part of what made them unusual - until at least Sept 1915 large numbers of university educated men who would in normal circumstances have been prime officer materials served as O/Rs - quite a number of those who survived the casualties that befell D Coy (of which U coy was half) at the 2nd Bellewaarde in Sept 1915 went on to be officers. (cf Alexander Rule etc)

U Coy 1/4th wore completely standard Gordons uniform as with the rest of the battalion. See the pic from 1909 on the top of my page

I have a couple of dozen photos of the th 4th bn from 1908-1914 all of them they have standard uniform and equipment.

Chris

PS I think the man identified above Brooks, 266773 was in the 1/7th Bn. the 1/5th recruited around Peterhead I have a number of photos of 1/7th Gordons pre war camos and they too have completely standard TF Gordons uniforms

[Ron Abbott]

Aberdeen University OTC was unusual. There was a infantry company which was U Company of 4 Gordon Highlanders. The actual OTC was a field ambulance section. Somewhere on the forum someone gave me a link to a site with pictures.

Robert Gordon's doesn't seem to have had an OTC at the time. I can't think of an other Aberdeenshire school which would have.

R.

Edit:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=222388&hl=

R.

http://theoldboars.smugmug.com/Images/20th-Century/1900-1929/

http://www.abdn.ac.uk/library/roll-of-honour/highlights/u-company/

[rolt968]

Thanks Ron and Chris

I knew you would both know more than I did.

R.

[trajan]

... On the "dress up" uniform ... I get the impression that it is often used in discussions like this as a catch-all explanation for something that otherwise seems inexplicable or contravenes regulations or expectations etc. It's the equivalent of the archeologists "probably of ritual significance" which to me usually translates as - "I have no idea what this is or why it is here" ...

Well, I guess that we can agree that the lack of agreement on what this set up is indicates that it is an assemblage of ritual significance...???