Aircraft Serial numbers

[researchingreg]

I have some film of an RFC Bristol fighter with the serial number C181 on the tail; however the serial numbers C1 to C200 were allocated to Sopwith Camels. Can anyone help? The aeroplane seems to be in a different livery (a light colour possibly white with a dark engine covering and nose) to the RFC and has a scottie dog painted on the side. But it is included in an RFC training film.

Also in the same film are SE5a fighters two of which have the serial numbers D359 and D6928. How can I find out which squadron these aircraft belonged to?

[topgun1918]

D359 went to No 84 Squadron; 2nd Lt I P Corse carried out a forced landing in this machine on 11 August 1918 after the engine seized during an Offensive Patrol.

D6928 appears to have remained in the UK - as soon as I can put my hands on my copy of the SE5 File I'll check.

With regard to the Bristol Fighter, is there any possibility that the leading digit is "7"?; C781 was delivered to No 88 Sqn in April 1918 but crashed on 8 May due to an empty cartridge case becoming jammed in the tailplane controls. After repair it went back to No 88 Sqn but was wrecked on 21 June when the engine failed during take-off and the machine was blown over by a strong wind; rebuilt as F6042, it was with No 5 Sqn RAF post-war - it crashed on rough ground near Coblenz on 24 March 1919.

Graeme

[researchingreg]

Graeme

Thanks for the info. The serial number for the SE5a is not D6928 it is D6926. it is shown next to D359 in a squadron line up of 12 aircraft, all being started and made ready for action. All the planes seem to be 84 Squadron with the backslash and forward slash white stripe either side of the roundel on the fuselages.

However the serial number on the tail of the Bristol Fighter is C181. In the film ground crew are shown actually assembling a complete two seat aeroplane, (probably a training exercise) which could be the bristol fighter in question and painted on the tail before it is finished is the Serial number C1, the other 81 could have been added later.

Geoff

[researchingreg]

Graeme

I apologise, my aircraft identification is rubbish. C181 is not a Bristol Fighter but it is a Curtis JN-4. i received some information from Tom McGhee, informing me that the serial number C181 was allocated to this aircraft as well as a Sopwith Camel. So that clears up that query.

Geoff

[topgun1918]

Geoff

D6926 was indeed issued to No 84 Squadron; 2nd Lt W J B Nel claimed three victories in it between 24 July and 7 August 1918 before damaging it in a forced landing on 21 August.

Graeme

[researchingreg]

Thanks Graeme

The 84 squadron line up readying for action must be before these aircraft were damaged.

Geoff

[topgun1918]

Geoff

D6926 was delivered to 84 Sqn from 2 ASD on 15 July 1918 with D359 following (also from 2 ASD) on 26 July 1918. The photograph must have been taken between 26 July and 11 August.

Graeme

[researchingreg]

Graeme

That is only a 15 day window, therefore in the film they must be in France and the two of the pilots in full flying suits, walking towards and standing by their aircraft, while ground crew are starting them, are more than likely the two pilots 2nd Lt's Corse and Nel

[94avenge]

Hello Geoff,

Try this excellent starting point for RFC/RAF aircraft histories, it is not 100% complete, but better than nought. This site also has personnel details.

Regards,

Ian

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/rfc/aircraft.html

[researchingreg]

Hello Geoff,

Try this excellent starting point for RFC/RAF aircraft histories, it is not 100% complete, but better than nought. This site also has personnel details.

Regards,

Ian

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/rfc/aircraft.html

Ian

Thanks for the information. On another matter I know that you are interested in Spittlegate (Grantham) airfield and the RFC/RAF units that operated from there. I was given some information on the AWFK3's allocated to 37 TS with serial numbers, which seem to contradict the serial numbers shown in the Royal Flying Corps Aircraft list you have posted

as those numbers seem to be allocated to AWFK8's

See the following excerpt I received in reply from a forum member to my to my post of October 2013 'Air Crash 37 TS Spittlegate 23 Mar 1918"

"37 TS specialised in turning out Corps Recce pilots for the AW FK8 squadrons. To that end, it was equipped, mainly, with FK3s and FK8s by early 1918. The only record I have that matches is for the unit's FK3 B9550, which crashed from a low turn following take-off - 2 crew noted as injured.

37 RESERVE/TRAINING SQUADRON RFC/RAF

Bases

Formed in 8^th Wing at Catterick 2.11.1916 with nucleus from 53 Squadron. To Brattleby/Scampton and 23^rd Wing 13.11.1916. Designated as a Higher Reserve Squadron and intended establishment at 23.12.1916 given as 6 AW FK3 + 6 RE8 + 6 Avro. To Spittlegate and 24^th Wing 15.9.1917 and disbanded into 39 TDS at that station 15.8.1918.

Commanding Officer Representative Aeroplanes

AMC DH6 A9595, B2635.

AMC DH9 C6209.

Avro 505A/J A488

AW FK3 5548, A1480, A1488, A8102, A8115, A8117, A8127, B9523, B9525, B9526, B9527, B9537, B9539, B9550, B9555, B9557, B9558, B9568, B9570, B9589, B9590, B9604, B9631, B9632, B9650.

AW FK8 A2727, B265, B268, B291, B294, B295, B3338, B4143, B4176, B5751, B5797, B5798, B5811. C3544, C3550, C3572, C3609, C8423.

RAF BE2e A1816, A3117, B4428.

RAF RE8 A3439, A3440, A3497, A4575."

The above information seems at variance with the serial numbers given in this list: http://www.airhistor...c/aircraft.html

Do you have an opinion on these FK3 serial numbers, or do you think that they belong to FK8's?

[94avenge]

_{Hello Geoff,}

_{Now that you point it out there is indeed some confusion over the serial numbers and I am not sure I am best placed to answer 100%.}

_{Robertson's "British Military Aircraft Serials" shows B9501 to 9800 as FK8s but in my copy I have amended this to read FK3 based on information from a listing of FK3 histories published in Air Britan's Aeromilitaria (Winter 2010) and this is backed up from data from this forum.}

_{B9501 - 9800 were built by Hewlett & Blondeau at Luton with the last 150 of the order being cancelled.}

_{I am sure within this forum someone with definative information will point us in the right direction.}

_Ian

[mickdavis]

There not the slightest doubt that B9501-B9650 were FK3s, built under Contract AS13073/1 dated 6.6.1917, which called for 300 machines (B9501-B9800) but the last 150 were cancelled 13.9.1917. There are plenty of pics available of machines in this batch and all show them to be FK3s. Suggest the Windsock mini-Datafile on the FK3 as a useful source - Jack Bruce knew his stuff.

[mickdavis]

Hopefully my serial listing for this block will come out in its MS Word format. Those entries taken from pilots' logbooks also provide clues - pilots tended to note FK3s as 'AW Small' or 'AW 90' - as opposed to FK8s ('AW 160'). The RAFM casualty cards also tend to use the same way of distinguishing between the 2 types.

B9501 – B9800 : 300 AW FK3 (90-hp RAF 1a) built by Hewlett & Blondeau Ltd, Oak Road, Leagrave, Luton with dual control and adjustable tailplanes under Contract No. AS13073/1, dated 16.6.1917. Last 150 cancelled 13.9.1917.

B9501 1 (Aux) SAG by 4.2.1918 (Lt J.H. Colbert).

B9502 1(Aux) SAG by 4.2.1918 and wrecked 6.3.1918 (2Lt T.W. Manley RFC/Lt F.G. Montgomery USAS both KIFA, the pilot fell out with the machine inverted).

B9503 To Middle East Brigade. SAG by 15.6.1918. 5 FS by 9.1918 until @ 2.1919. Z Sqn by 9.5.1919 and deleted on unit 21.7.1919.

B9504 To Middle East Brigade. 5 FS by 9.1918 and wrecked 29.10.1918 (Lt Dobbie/2Lt Small both OK, the machine was in collision with Nieuport Scout) and deleted on unit 9.6.1919.

B9505 To Middle East Brigade. 5 FS and deleted on unit 9.6.1919.

B9506 44 TS 1918.

B9507

B9508

B9509 1 (Aux) SAG and known to have crashed.

B9510 1 (Aux) SAG as a/c 10.

B9511 1 (Aux) SAG by 5.1918.

B9512

B9513

B9514

B9515

B9516 9 TS by 10.1917 until @ 8.3.1918.

B9517 9 TS by 10.1917.

B9518 85 Sqn 4.1918. 18th Wing ARS ex 85 Sqn 29.4.1918 (engine E3928). 18th Wing HQ Flt ex ARS 7.8.1918 (engine 5954). 42 TDS ex 18th Wing HQ Flt 7.9.1918 (same engine). To Civil Register and EDC Herne of Porthcawl as G-EABZ. Named Rhondda on rear fuselage.

B9519

B9520

B9521 1 (Aux) SAG and wrecked 7.1.1918 (Lt CO Feddon KIFA, Capt DF Reid IIFA, the machine crashed after engine cut over sea at 1200ft).

B9522

B9523 37 TS by 23.1.1918.

B9524 20 TS by 4.1918. 50 TS by 13.7.1918 until @ 4.8.1918 (2Lt F.A. Beardmore).

B9525 15 TS by 7.1917 until @ 8.1917. 37 TS by 22.1.1918 (Lt G.C. Kitchingman). 15 TS by 10.8.1918.

B9526 20 TS by 11.1917 until @ 3.1918. 37 TS by 26.4.1918 until @ 13.6.1918. 25 TS, crashed on nose.

B9527 37 TS by 17.6.1918.

B9528 1 (Observers) SAG by 5.1918.

B9529

B9530

B9531 1 (Observers) SAG by 5.1918.

B9532

B9533 52 TS by 6.1918. 49 TDS 1918.

B9534

B9535 15 TS by 27.12.1917 until @ 20.7.1918 (with Specialist Section). NAS Killingholme (USN) as ‘hack’ machine by 5.9.1918 (Ensign Warburton/Lt McCann) until @ 25.10.1918 (Capt Pattison RAF/CPO Hughes).

B9536

B9537 15 TS by 5.1918. 37 TS by 1.6.1918 until @ 6.6.1918.

B9538 1 (Aux) SAG by 13.12.1917 (Lt J.H. Colbert). 50 TS and wrecked 4.2.1918 (Lt W.R. Clarke KIFA, the machine crashed from a dive).

B9539 37 TS by 21.1.1918 (Lt G.C. Kitchingman) and wrecked 16.5.1918 (2Lt E.F. Coyle IIFA, the machine spun in from 50ft).

B9540 15 TS by 11.1.1918 until @ 2.1918.

B9541 15 TS and wrecked 31.12.1917 (1 injured, the machine crashed from sideslip following stall).

B9542 15 TS and wrecked in collision 2.7.1918 (1 injured).

B9543

B9544 15 TS by 21.1.1918.

B9545

B9546

B9547 15 TS by 20.1.1918 until @ 6.1918.

B9548 15 TS by 16.2.1918. 39 TDS and wrecked 25.10.1918 (1 injured, the machine hit a hedge during a forced landing).

B9549

B9550 37 TS by 23.1.1918 (Lt G.C. Kitchingman) and wrecked 23.3.1918 (2 injured, the machine crashed from low turn following take-off).

B9551 9 TS by 25.2.1918 until @ 3.6.1918.

B9552 9 TS 11.6.1918.

B9553 Spittlegate (50TS ?).

B9554

B9555 37 TS by 16.1.1918 until @ 1.3.1918 (Lt G.C. Kitchingman).

B9556

B9557 37 TS by 7.4.1918.

B9558 37 TS by 20.4.1918 until @ 19.5.1918.

B9559 50 TS and wrecked 31.1.1918 (1 injured, the machine hit a tree on landing in fog).

B9560 39 TDS by 26.8.1918.

B9561 9 TS by 2.1918.

B9562 18th Wing ARS dd ex Islington store 27.1.1918. 9 TS dd ex 18th Wing ARS 5.2.1918 until 27.2.1918.

B9563 18th Wing ARS dd ex Islington store 27.1.1918. 9 TS dd ex 18th Wing ARS 5.2.1918

B9564 18th Wing ARS dd ex Islington store 27.1.1918. 9 TS dd ex 18th Wing ARS 5.2.1918 until @ 2.6.1918.

B9565 110 Sqn by 6.1918. 121 Sqn ex 110 Sqn 4.6.1918. 9 TS by 20.6.1918.

B9566

B9567

B9568 37 TS by 15.1.1918 until @ 21.1.1918.

B9569

B9570 20 TS by 11.1917 until @ 3.1918. 37 TS by 8.4.1918. 50 TS by 17.7.1918 (2Lt F.A. Beardmore). 27 TDS from 15.8.1918.

B9571 Zig-zag fuselage marking – 1 TDS ?

B9572 Zig-zag fuselage marking – 1 TDS ?

B9573

B9574

B9575

B9576

B9577

B9578 9 TS by 2.1918. 26 TS by 17.5.1918.

B9579

B9580

B9581 26 TS by 16.3.1918 and wrecked 2.6.1918 (2Lt K.N. Finlay fatally IIFA, the machine crashed after spin from a low turn).

B9582 26 TS by 24.3.1918.

B9583

B9584 110 Sqn by 6.3.1918 until @ 11.6.1918.

B9585 121 Sqn 1918. 110 Sqn by 25.2.1918 until @ 10.6.1918.

B9586

B9587

B9588 37 TS and wrecked 20.3.1918 (2Lt G.P. Prescott IIFA – the machine crashed on take-off).

B9589 37 TS by 5.2.1918 until @ 28.2.1918.

B9590 37 TS by 4.1918.

B9591

B9592 26 TS by 3.1918. 121 Sqn until @ 13.6.1918.

B9593 121 Sqn by 15.4.1918 until wrecked 9.6.1918 (2Lt P.H. Gange KIFA, the machine crashed in spin after stalled on downwind turn in strong winds). Deleted 10.6.1918.

B9594 15 TS by 18.3.1918 until @ 5.1918.

B9595 110 Sqn by 4.1918.

B9596 121 Sqn 1918. 110 Sqn by 27.2.1918 until @ 27.3.1918.

B9597 64 TS by 2.1918. 9 TS by 22.2.1918.

B9598

B9599 52 TS by 3.1918. Agricultural Hall, Islington dd ex Spittlegate 12.9.1918 for intended preservation.

B9600 51 TS by 2.1918. 48 TS wrecked 23.3.1918 (Sgt J.H. Robinson KIFA/Capt F. Mc Turner MC IIFA, the machine crashed after the tail broke off).

B9601 51 TS by 15.5.1918 until @ 6.1918. 47 TS by 7.1918.

B9602

B9603 51 TS by 5.1918. To Civilian Register 10.9.1919 as G-EALK, registered to L.G. Lowe.

B9604 37 TS by 1.3.1918 and known to have crashed.

B9605

B9606 2 AAP dd 9.2.1918 (engine E6039/WD32444) and tested 23.2.1918 (Lt Watson). 18th Wing ARS dd ex Hendon 11.4.1918. 119 Sqn allotted from Hounslow 3.4.1918. 9 TS by 26.6.1918. 50 TS by 25.7.1918 (2Lt F.A. Beardmore). At Gormanston 1919 and sold to O. McDowell 31.3.1919. Not on Civil Register but flown from Marsh Farm, Dromiskin, Co Louth until 4.1924.

B9607 50 TS and wrecked 5.3.1918 (1 injured, the machine crashed into vicarage at Grantham after engine failure).

B9608 15 TS by 7.4.1918. 20 TS and wrecked 20.7.1918 (2 injured, the machine crashed in a spin from 1800ft).

B9609 15 TS by 28.2.1918 until @ 4.1918. 50 TS by 15.7.1918 (2Lt F.A. Beardmore). 27 TDS from 15.8.1918 until @ 2.9.1918 (2Lt F.A. Beardmore).

B9610

B9611

B9612 12 TS by 19.3.1918 (Lt W.R.E. Harrison). 126 Sqn by 6.1918. To Civil Register as G-EAEU, registered to Kingsbury Aviation.

B9613 1 TDS by 29.4.1918 until @ 7.8.1918.

B9614

B9615 Shawbury 3.1918. 69 TS by 19.5.1918 until @ 30.6.1918.

B9616 110 Sqn by 7.3.1918 until @ 15.5.1918. 69 TS by 30.5.1918 until @ 19.7.1918.

B9617 110 Sqn by 27.2.1918.

B9618

B9619

B9620 26 TS by 24.3.1918. 55 TDS by 10.11.1918 (2Lt T.S. Cullenden).

B9621 26 TS by 3.1918 until @ 16.5.1918. 69 TS by 15.7.1918 until @ 21.7.1918.

B9622 26th Wing ARS Thetford. 26 TS dd ex Thetford 5.3.1918 until @ 21.3.1918.

B9623 26 TS by 3.1918 until @ 22.4.1918.

B9624 26 TS by 3.1918 until @ 26.4.1918.

B9625 110 Sqn by 10.5.1918.

B9626 Shawbury 3.1918. 69 TS by 23.6.1918 until @ 27.6.1918. 121 Sqn by 23.7.1918.

B9627 110 Sqn by 23.3.1918 until @ 3.4.1918. 26 TS by 21.4.1918.

B9628

B9629 To Civilian Register and E.D.C. Herne of Porthcawl 16.5.1919 as G-EABY and named Porthcawl on rear fuselage.

B9630 50 TS by 9.7.1918 until @ 11.7.1918 (2Lt F.A. Beardmore).

B9631 37 TS and wrecked 10.3.1918 (1 injured, the machine crashed from a flat spin).

B9632 37 TS by 20.4.1918 until @ 10.6.1918.

B9633 15 TS by 4.1918 until @ 5.1918.

B9634 75 TS by 22.3.1918.

B9635 52 TS 1918. 46 TS by 8.6.1918.

B9636 52 TS by 3.1918.

B9637 52 TS by 5.1918. 127 Sqn by 21.6.1918 until @ 23.6.1918 (2Lt G. Dixon).

B9638 47 TS by 12.5.1918 until @ 15.5.1918. 51 TS by 7.1918 until @ 8.1918.

B9639 47 TS by 16.5.1918 until @ 12.6.1918.

B9640 15 TS by 20.4.1918. 47 TS by 24.4.1918 until @ 26.4.1918. 13 TDS by 7.1918. 39 TDS by 9.1918. At one time marked with white zig-zag on rear fuselage – 1 TDS ?

B9641

B9642 SARD with rigging test 15.5.1918 (Lt E.H. Lawford, ‘all OK’), tested again 26.5.1918 (‘all OK’) and used as ‘hack’ and instructional machine at SARD until @ 12.10.1918.

B9643 110 Sqn and wrecked 15.5.1918 (2Lt RF Finks IIFA, the machine crashed from a side-slip).

B9644 17 TS by 12.1917. 69 TS by 30.5.1918 until @ 17.7.1918. 35 TDS by 9.1918.

B9645 B9646 Shawbury 3.1918. 121 Sqn by 4.1918 until @ 28.6.1918.

B9647 15 TS by 22.4.1918. 121 Sqn wrecked by 17.5.1918 (Flt Cdt J.A. Gill) and deleted by 31.5.1918.

B9648 9 TS by 13.10.1917. 121 Sqn (listed as B9468) by 3.4.1918. 69 TS allotted ex 121 Sqn 9.7.1918.

B9649 121 Sqn (listed as B9469) by 25.4.1918. 69 TS by 6.1918 until @ 20.7.1918.

B9650 37 TS by 22.4.1918.

[researchingreg]

Mick Davis

Thanks for the comprehensive information in reply about the FK3's Serial Numbers, which are at odds with the official serial number list. I am interested in the AW FK3 serial number B9550, which must be the plane my uncle Reg crashed in on 23.3.1918.

Who was Lt G C Kitchingman? Was he the O/C of 37 TS or an instructor, delivery pilot, or the person in charge of receiving aircraft for 37 TS? Have you any ideas?

[94avenge]

Lt Cyril Gilbert kitchingman, because of his rank he would not be the OC of 37 TS and I suspect he would not be an instructor either as his AIR 76 records later RAF service "average pilot and does not inspire confidence in his instructors" , but then stranger things have happened.

His progress in RFC/RAF is,

14TS Nov 1917

24 Wing Dec 1917

37 TS Feb 1918

35 squadron Nov 1918 - March as per Mick see post 17

39 TDS Dec 1918

Hospital March 1919 listed as Grantham

to unemployed list April 1919

later rejoined RAF.

His WO339 / 118939 files may offer clues.

Ian

Mick, Thanks for the posting the FK3 details.

Also from his time with 35 sqdn

15.11.18

F7429 AW Wrecked on landing from travelling flight to locate AW B7482. Lt C G Kitchingman

Pilot okay.

[researchingreg]

Ian

Thanks for the information.

Do you know why he was in hospital in March 1918?

[mickdavis]

Kitchingman trained with 37 TS. His instructors were noted at Capt Line, Lt Crawford and Lt Wyness. His flights in B9550 were all solo, except for one with Lt Crawford on 7.2.1918. He joined 35 Sqn in March, not November, 1918 and made his first flight with that unit on 24.3.1918, delivering FK8 C8456 from Candas. There is no March 1919 accident in his logbook - his last flight with the unit was noted on 22.2.1919 in Avro 2585 (presumably F2585).

[researchingreg]

Mick

My uncle 2nd Lt Reginald William King 48245 was with 37 TS at the same time as Lt C G Kitchingham,. have you any record of his flights under instruction?

[94avenge]

Geoff,

My details taken from C G Kitchingman's AIR76 record that just mentions him going to hospital, his WO339 file might say but I do not have a copy.

RAF Museum accident card shows Reg King crashed in B9550 on 23.3.1918 and carted off to Belton Military Hospital, this just up the road from Spittlegate (Grantham)

Mick,

Thanks for the correction ref his time with 35 sqdn, my data as per above and first mention of 35 sqdn was Nov but you cannot argue with a logbook !

Ian

[researchingreg]

Ian

Thanks for the confirmation my uncles crash in an AW AW FK3 Serial Number B9550.

[mickdavis]

Mick

My uncle 2nd Lt Reginald William King 48245 was with 37 TS at the same time as Lt C G Kitchingham,. have you any record of his flights under instruction?

I've photographic copies of several Spittlegate based pilots - will have to check them out.

[researchingreg]

Mick

Thank you for your time and effort . It would be nice to know more.

[mickdavis]

Just to correct my earlier about Kitchingman. He was initially posted to 82 Sqn with the BEF and transferred to 35 Sqn, making his first flight with that unit on 10.8.1918 in D5154. The machine he crashed on 15 November, F7429, had suffered engine failure.

[lancashire]

A few messages back a web site was given for RFC/RAF plane allocations is there one for the RNAS? been there, thanks

[nieuport11]

RNAS serials are comprehensively listed in the book "Royal Navy Aircraft Serials and Units 1911-1919, by Ray Sturtivant and Gordon Page ISBN 0851301916