Some Less Common Grenades

[calibre792x57.y]

Well T.T I haven't seen your enlargements. So, carrying on, is another German rifle grenade., the GewehrGranate M.1917 and it's discharger cup.. Complete and similar in prinicipal to the French VB, although the Germans hotly deny it that is was a copy. The grenade appears late in photographs in 1918. Fired from a cup discharger pushed onto the muzzle of a Gew 98. The grenade was launched by the muzzle blast of a service ball round which passes through the central tunnel and brushed

against a 0.22 rimfire cartridge starting the five seconds delay. The bomb contained 60 gms of perdit and had a cast iron shell 60 mm in diameter as comparedt to the 50 mm of the VB. The range was about 190 meters. They are rare in good condition although relics can be found on the late war battlefields. Shown for scale with an EB 47 all steel bayonet. SW

[trenchtrotter]

Enlargements tomorrow. Probably?

TT

[trenchtrotter]

I found one Boom Ravine on Somme. Likely 1918 not early 1917?

TT

[trenchtrotter]

A poor close up of No 2 and No 19

TT

[calibre792x57.y]

I found one Boom Ravine on Somme. Likely 1918 not early 1917?

TT

I can only say that all those I have seen in photographs being carried (only three so it may well not be representative) are taken in the German 1918 offensives. It seems likely that they first appeared late in '17 so those you found may date from the reoccupation of the ravine by the Germans?? - Thank you for the photos. - SW

[trenchtrotter]

SW

Thanks. I think perhaps you are right. I did not realise widespread use of the grenade was so late. I am finding grenades far more interesting and appealing as a new direction to collect. I would like a really nice and complete No 3 or a good German Stick Grenade next.

TT

[calibre792x57.y]

Good Hales No.3 grenades still turn up at Militaria Fairs on occasion, but WW1 stick grenades in good condition are much harder to find. Unfortunately I sold my collection which included machine guns and seven uniformed mannequins and most of my grenades are 'bought-backs' from that time. But Good Hunting. - SW

[flers1916]

They can still be found on the battlefields, I found this rifle grenade near The Nab, Ovilliers when I was looking at Chorley Street Trench in June. Sadly I couldn't bring it home - to me - it still looked 'live'.

[trenchtrotter]

Two better images of No 19. I think cast into body is J P & S and then G 19 1

[calibre792x57.y]

As you probably know T.T., J.P & S is thought to be Josiah Parkes & Sons, Willenhall, Staffs. Is the top of the mushroom striker also stamped? Appears to be a nice bomb with original paintwork. And as for Graham43;I think your decision to let the No.3 be was sound! It is a Mk1. of course. I have found two exploded remains of these around Lochnager, not too far from yours. - SW

[trenchtrotter]

Top not stamped.

TT

[calibre792x57.y]

Not personally much interested in French grenades: except for this early one. The F 2. Deuxieme Model. 1915. A relation of the British No.8 and 9 'double cylinder' bombs of early 1915. The grenade body is manufactured from a sheet of steel 70mm wide which has a deep cannelure running down it's edges. This is rolled into a cylinder 56 mm in diameter. This is lap soldered around a smaller internal cylinder. The base, a concave shape is secured by turning over the edges of the cylinder as is the top which holds a tube for the detonator assembly which passes into the internal cylinder. This latter holds 60 grams of Cheddite, a French explosive consisting of a mixture of nitro-benzene, and potassium chlorate mixed with castor oil. The space between the double cylinders is occupied by iron shot embedded in resin. The cylinder then fastened to a wooden bat handle with wire loops. There are two versions of this bomb, differing only by the means of the ignition. In the first model the detonator and five second fuze end in a wood block in which is fastened a 'top hat' primer used in percussion arms. A blunt nail is held in the block and secured by a wire loop. To fire the user removes the nail from it's storage and pushes it into a second hole over the primer. A sharp rap then starts the chain. In the second model, like this, there are two blocks of wood in front of the cylinder. The first secures the fuze which is tipped with match composition. The second block is clamped to the first trapping a strip of silk which is coated with an abrasive paste between the two, against the fuze. Pulling sharply on the wire which secures the blocks drags the silk across the fuze and fires the bomb. The knife is also interesting as it is a genuine article amongst the many fakes. Though generally known to collectors as the 'Clou Francais' examples came from RSAF Weedon in the Twenties under the designation 'Knife, British, Stabbing'. Certainly they were issued to the British grenade throwers and this one was brought back from the battle of Loos by a soldier as a souvenir who was under the impression that it was German. There are many fakes, but although described as 'crude they were actually made by experienced black smiths from available materials. They were forged without any trace of grinding to form the blade.- SW

[calibre792x57.y]

Another view of the bomb. Notice how two of the securing wires lock into the pre-formed cannelures on the cylinder. The wires securing the body are replacements as the originals were cut to remove the cylinder and disarm the bomb. These were replaced by lengths of string for display, which in turn have aged into fraility. One has to wonder at some of the French equipment - photos show the would be users with a cord loop over their shoulder and a row of F.2 grenades hooked over the cord by the notch cut in the bat handle. Given the somewhat Heath Robinson system of ignition this is definitely classed as 'hairy!' Like the British No.12 over here, these are much sought after in France and much faked.- SW

[venceremos]

On 18.12.2014 at 18:14, Gunner Bailey said:

In a similar vein how about this Kugel?

John

This is russian kugel Mle 1916. But fuse is german

Top -german kugels, bottom - russian Mle 1915 and Mle 1916

 

[venceremos]

Left-russian fuse,  right - german

 

[calibre792x57.y]

Wow!  Never seen these Russian grenades before, altho' I admit I've concentrated only on the Western Front.  Live and learn. - S.W,

[arantxa]

what does the top of a mk1 grenade look like when you take the cap off

[14276265]

Do you mean a British No.1 grenade? Of which there are three marks, all fairly similar.

[calibre792x57.y]

Okay Arantxa - you will have had my reply and this one is for the forum.  The detonator is shown in position and the striker which is integral with the safety cap is visible.  Rotating the cap to the 'Fire' position allows the cap to telescope onto the body when struck, after the safety pin is removed, driving the striker into the detonator body and firing the primer.  Very dangerous to handle - it was originally based on a Japanese grenade used in the Russian - Japanese War of 1905. - SW

Edited 11 May , 2018 by calibre792x57.y
Change'cap' to 'primer' for clarity!

[Guest]

On 13/10/2015 at 18:52, calibre792x57.y said:

 the Germans hotly deny it that is was a copy

 

 

Never seen or heard any "germans hotly denying it was a copy". But it's a fact that there is no document that proves any attempts to copy it, but there are documents of the research that lead to this grenade, as well as some of the patents it is based on. The most important of these patents are the following:

 

a) Rasmus Hagbarth Quisling in Kristiana (Oslo) from march 18th, 1909, patent number 220 016, for the discharger cup

b) Dynamit-Actien-Gesellschaft in Hamburg, from february 17th, 1911, patent number 245 209, for the air chamber between the base of the cup and the base of the grenade

c) Fritz Kraushaar in Berlin, from january 17th, 1915, patent number 303 207, for the projectile passing tube in the center of the grenade.

 

The grenade Modell 1913 and 1914 were a flop and the production was stopped in 1915, while testing on other types of rifle grenade was intensified. The grenade 1917 proved to be successful and was intensively used.

Some elements of the VB might have been copied, but the general concept of the VB wasn't something unheard of until 1916. One can assume that a lot of people in several countries tried to answer the question of how to shoot overcalibrated grenades from a rifle without blowing the rifle up. But the construction is more complicated than it appears.

 

 

 

[battle of loos]

good morning,

 

here is a "non-lethal" grenade found on the ground (Artois - France).

 

No 26 mk I Spring gun grenade

 

 

Here are the dimensions:
height: 130.75 mm
diameter: 79.85 mm
tube diameter: 6.41 mm
tube depth: 50 mm

 

The pot is black.

 

it was presented here :

 

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/279450-smoke-grenade/?tab=comments#comment-2856921

 

 

regards

 

michel

[Gunner Bailey]

Here's one in slightly better condition.

 

[battle of loos]

On 2/19/2021 at 10:03 AM, Gunner Bailey said:

Here's one in slightly better condition.

 

 

 

good evening,

 

 very nice.

thank's for your picture.

 

regards

 

michel