Some Less Common Grenades

[calibre792x57.y]

For most collectors the No.24 is not classed as a less common grenade, but look closely. The detonator set is nickel plated, an indication that it is intended for instructional purposes. Though retaining it's original paint it has no colour bands, so never filled. Lost it's twine finger pull but otherwise all there. Usual copper-plated 10 inch rod - SW

[calibre792x57.y]

Now look a the other side! - Although this appears to be professionally done it seems odd that the person sectioning it would choose to cut away the base which weakens the fixing of the rod without adding anything to our knowledge, after all a screw-thread is a screw-thread. ! However, sectioned No. 24 s must count as less common. For the interested the head is marked by the maker, G.T.L. (Gestetner Ltd, London, originally a German firm!) and the designation --24, and date 1/1917. Partially defaced of course by the cutting, - SW

[14276265]

It is indeed an official section, one of 3,500 ordered - 500 requested 31 January 1917 and a further 3,000 19th February 1917. The base is sectioned to show how the needle pellet sits (when the releasing socket is removed).

265

[calibre792x57.y]

Thanks 265 -never too late to learn. A late addition. I have been shown another sectioned No. 24 Mk 1, and it is identical with mine, except that there are no maker's marks at all. Perhaps part of the later order? So, more common than I supposed! -SW

[khanda]

Interesting thread. Thanks for sharing

[calibre792x57.y]

Here is one that I have previously put up in another thread but have now replaced by another image. At this time I think it will be still of interest. A Turkish 'Tuffenjief' grenade which was the standard bomb during the Gallipoli campaign. The body is roughly cast iron and still contains the residue from it's black powder charge. Others had an H.E. content and required a detonator. The body has a lug and a belt ring on one side and the closing plug appears to be made from a lead based alloy. Beneath the plug should be a brass 'spring' which held the match tipped fuze in position. Originally they had a ten second burning time but this was reduced at Gallipoli where the short ranges enabled the Allies to return the burning bomb to it's owner. Note the rough crescent cast into the body. Cheers to all you Anzacs! - SW

[wombocombo]

Rod, reviewing the information we have, I strongly suspect that not only is wombocombos grenade as empty as yesterdays tin of beans, but that he knows it and is pulling our legs! - SW

Hi Rod, sorry for my delayed response and please believe me I wasn't pulling any legs. I have (whether it was sensible or not) taken the top off to find it was empty! I have no idea of the value of the thing - can you help?

[Michael Haselgrove]

Sommewalker,

Thanks for your post. Attached are several photos of the somewhat battered example in my collection. It was painted black before I acquired it many years ago and I will probably get around to removing the paint one of these days. The hole in the side allows sight of the segmented interior.

Regards,

Michael.

[calibre792x57.y]

Michael, - I must say that I wasn't aware that these grenades could be found to be internally segmented. The one I posted is just plain rough cast. Yours shows the brass fuze retainer I mentioned as missing on my example, but does not have the lug and belt ring. Somewhere I have seen a photograph of a Turkish infantryman carrying three or four on belt hooks. Made a nice souvenir tho'! - SW

[wombocombo]

Hi wombocombo,

Welcome to the forum. Firstly, please make sure that your grenade is inert. If in any doubt whatsoever seek advice from an appropriate expert.

Subject to that, it looks like you have a No.1 Mk.1 grenade that has had the handle cut down converting it into a Mk.II. The long handles were cut down as, in the narrow confines of a trench, it was found that the long-handled grenade, when being thrown, struck the rear wall of the trench and exploded.

You can find some information here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_1_Grenade and elsewhere on the internet . I would be interested to know whether there are any marks on your example. Often the manufacturer's markings are found on the wooden handle close to where the streamers are tacked on. Have a careful look as, if present, the markings may not be clear.

I hesitate to give an opinion as to value but your example may be worth somewhere between £500 and £1,000. I expect others will have a better idea.

Regards,

Michael.

Hi Michael,

It is exactly that one, it looks like mine has had the handle sawn off a little though - I guess to overcome the issues identified in the article about hitting the other side of the trenches.

I am loathe to sell it but I think the wife has other ideas, are there any sites specialisng in these items?

Any help appreciated.

Chris.

[calibre792x57.y]

Well since we seemed to have moved to 'ball grenades here is a quite unusual design. As I previously mentioned the War Office seems to have pursued the idea of grenades which were fired by percussion fuzes rather than the tried and tested time patterns. Here is one of these designs which was produced by Woolwich arsenal but was the idea of a Mr Humphries. It was trialled in mid-1916 with satisfactory results. Despite the initial approval the 'Grenade Hand, Humphries No.2 Pattern' did not reach the status of the numbered series, chiefly because further trials in France led to reports of a high percentage of blinds. Furthermore the Army did not want a percussion 'hand' grenade, they were happy with the Mills, they were looking for a smaller lighter hand pattern and a better design of a rifle grenade. The Humphries has a spherical tin case supporting an aluminium centre piece not unlike the Mills in some respects with an off-set detonator and fuze holder. Instead of a spring loaded striker the centre held a steel striker pellet and a brass cap pellet held apart by a light anti-creep spring. The opposite ends of the pellets were domed and fitted loosely in the aluminium centre piece. The pellets were secured by a copper safety bolt pushed through an aperture into the centrepiece holding the two pellets securely apart. The bolt was attached to a weighted linen tape which wrapped around the centre of the grenade and was then secured in position by the usual split pin and finger pull. The body held 5 ounces of ammonal and depending on the material of the body could be produced as either a blast or fragmentation grenade. To use it the thrower removed the tape safety pin and threw the bomb. In flight the weighted tape unrolled and pulled the copper bolt away leaving only the creep spring holding the two pellets apart. On striking the ground the inertia forces caused the domed ends to act against the curved interior of the centre piece and forced the needle into the percussion cap firing the bomb. A simple all-ways fuze which would re- appear in the design of the No.54 and 69 grenades. - SW

[calibre792x57.y]

Rather more common than the last offering but still very desirable is the German Stick Grenade M.1915. The usual source for the later patterns is the U.S.A. whose soldiers took many M.17 grenades back

home. But this model was introduced in the earlier and bloody exchanges in 1915 and are correspondingly rarer. The head contained a heavy charge of a mix of T.N.T.and Ammonium Nitrate; sufficiently heavy that it could be used in both offensive and defensive roles. As usual the stick contained a friction operated delay and percussion cap plus a detonator which, as the warning label reminds us was to be fitted immediately prior to use. This early example has a delay of seven seconds. This was soon changed to a standard 51/2 seconds. Although mildly rusted the blackened label is still present as is remnants of the original field grey finish; the pull cord emerged from the base and was turned back over the handle and secured by a red paper band whose traces may still be seen. - SW

[calibre792x57.y]

This gives a an idea of the size of the bomb compared with it's contemporaries and other more common pieces. - SW

[calibre792x57.y]

Another German Stick Grenade M.1915. These grenades appeared towards the middle of 1915 and seem to have been produced by a number of manufacturers to a general format rather than a particular specification. The heads are about 12 cms long X 7 cms diameter and are constructed according to the maker's capabilities. Whereas the last post showed a cylinder lid secured by a bayonet fitting and clips, this has the cylinder walls spun over the lid. Both contained about 270 gms of Donnerit, a 15/85 mix of TNT and Ammonium Nitrate similar to Ammonal. The early heads are often black-painted with a paper label reminding the user to fit a detonator; the later examples have the same instruction stencilled in white paint. (Not visible in this photo as it is on the other side) . Note that the delay time has been reduced to 5 1/2 seconds and this is stamped into the handle. The head retains much of it's field grey paint and the cardboard cylinder which once protected the filling from moisture is still in place, as is the detonator holder. The total Wt. filled was 820 gms. Both patterns were susceptible to moisture and this led to further development. SW

[calibre792x57.y]

During 1916 the explosive charge of the stick grenade was changed to 'Tolite' which contained a higher proportion of T.N.T. in the mix, which allowed the charge weight to be reduced while producing the same effect. The heads remained the same size and a wood block (and newspaper!) filled the unoccupied volume. Late in 1916 grenades were produced with smaller heads, eliminating the spacers, but still fitted with 'lids'. These were further developed into a precise specification to which every manufacturer had to conform. The head was pressed from a single piece of sheet steel to form a cylinder 11 cms high and 6 cms in diameter. Into this went the charge and the base-piece was fitted by turning it's edge over a rim on the cylinder. The handles were 25 cms long, contained a 'pull' friction igniter,and were closed by a metal screw-cap with finger-grips. This was the Stg 17 which remained in service throughout the War. This example is particularly well marked. The 'Grabendolch' also shown in thought to also date to the last years of the War - SW

[calibre792x57.y]

A drawing of the same piece shewing all the markings and the porcelain button of the vanished pull-cord. One could once pick up these on the battle lines. - SW

[trenchtrotter]

The grenades or the porcelain balls? Still find those plus the screw caps. I occasionally find stick grenades in woods.

TT

[calibre792x57.y]

Eggs - SW

[trenchtrotter]

Here is a selection of some of my munitions. They are all inert!

The Granatenwerfer has a very old label attached that reads From Loos. German mortar June 1917.

Granatenwerfer. I can certainly state they were fired in quantity there as in March my brother and I found a field littered with tail tubes and fins plus casing.

TT

[calibre792x57.y]

They look good T.T. - can you post a larger photo so we can see the detail? - By 1917 the werfgranate had replaced the rodded rifle grenades in the German arsenal. SW

[trenchtrotter]

Will do. The No 2 Mk 2 is marked Cotton Powder Co Ltd over Hales Patent London over 8 M/M over F. On the smaller section where the handle attaches is /\ 47. ie broad arrow. Does the F signify it was originally part of the French batch ordered before we commandeered?

TT

[calibre792x57.y]

As you suggest, the Number 2 Mk2 was probably originally one of a batch of rodded rifle grenades which were produced for a French contract for use with the Lebel, and later converted for Hand use by the British.- SW

[trenchtrotter]

Thanks. I have seen one pictured on Internet with a B instead of F. Brazil contract? Also some have (as mine does) slotted extensions to the bit where the rod / handle attaches and others don't? The narrow brass bit at the base if main body.

Why? Again conversion v later made especially as hand as opposed to rifle examples. Hope I make sense?

TT

[calibre792x57.y]

I was just going to come up again as, looking at my No.2 Mk1, I noticed that it also has a upper case 'B' stamped on the body. The slotted extension is an indication of a converted rodded rifle grenade, and is a feature of the early hand patterns. It was intended to slip over the muzzle of the Mexican Mauser service rifle and perform the function of a gas seal when discharged. On the later examples which were made as hand grenades this additional complication was unnecessary and was deleted. I have to say I am not sure of the signifigance of these letters - are you certain that yours is a 'F'? The loops of the'B' on mine are quite lightly stamped.- SW

[trenchtrotter]

Hi definately a F.

TT