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Cap badge confusion


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Two of my ancestors were in WW1. Charles Fisher was in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers (not sure why) but oddly the photo I have shows an Irish harp on his cap badge when I would have expected a Welsh dragon. Charles died of Flu and is listed on CWGC. Can anyone explain the uniform? William Fisher was in the Rifle Brigade and hence I would have expected a Maltese Cross or Bugle. I only have one other soldier photo so I assume it must be William but the badge again doesn't look right. Can anyone identify the uniform? William was quickly discharged as being too small to be an effective soldier. Both Charles and William were from London.

Any help gratefully received

regards

Colin

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Top picture looks like 18th London Regiment (London Irish Rifles) ?

Is that perhaps the rifles connection?

Chris

If I have understood correctly maybe the identities of the picture are reversed and the top picture is William?

Edited by 4thGordons
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Picture one

Trying to make out shoulder title.....could it be T 8 London Regiment?

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The shoulder title appears consistent three lines T 18 London R?

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Interesting badge below (Calling Grumpy!)

Chris

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There are a few C Fishers with MIC's with London Regiment but none show an address. Can you give the link to his death on CWGC or give his regiment and service number listed?

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I thought it was that one as well. So it looks like he did not go overseas and there will be no MIC for him.

I suppose the picture posted might not be him ? He does look young enough though.

Identification of the trade/skill badge might help.

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Not sure on that one - seems to be the wrong place of a TF ranging or efficiency "star" and a quick flip through Grumpy's book hasn't helped me

.

I am sure as I can be that the first picture shows the uniform of the 18th London (London Irish Rifles) - badges all fit, as do blackened buttons etc.

If so that is unlikely to be Charles Fisher I would have thought as his regimental affiliation is known.

The "Rifle Brigade" connection could suggest it is William but the presence of a trade/skill badge would suggest not as that indicates proficiency (which would challenge "too small to become an efficient soldier")

Looks like additional info. might be needed from the OP.

BTW Welcome to the forum Colin!

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SDGW shows Charles Stanley Fisher 61892 as enlisting St. Pancras

Regiment shown as RWF

Battalion shown as 6th Garrison Battalion.

from LLT

6th Garrison Battalion
Formed at Aintree on 18 September 1916, and moved to Egypt in January 1917, remaining there throughout the war. From arrival it was based at the Citadel, Cairo. The battalion arrived at Salonika on 1 November 1918. After a brief stay at Salonika the battalion embarked for Bulgaria, landing at Dede-Agach on 10 November, and was employed in guarding the Salonika-Constantinople railway.

It would seem that he died at Aintree? I doubt he would have been on their strength until he arrived?

So is the picture posted him?

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Well I would say that the first one is not Charles, unless he had pre war TF service with the London Irish Rifles which his age would appear to discount.

The second picture has me stumped... I would suggest it is almost certainly pre 1914, but I can't figure out what the cap badge is (something suggests vaguely Yeomanry to me but....). He seems to be in some form of dress uniform - (perhaps Frogsmile can help) so that would largely rule out a wartime enlistee. (so not Charles again)

That's about all I have!

Chris

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Colin

There are a lot of William Fishers listed Rifle Brigade , London Regiment and KRRC.

Do you have a second Christian name and year of birth for him?

Where has your info on him come from?

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I am pretty certain the photograph of the chap in the first picture shown has been taken very early post-war - he appears to be wearing the larger-peaked 1920's version of the SD cap, and his 1908 belt has the rolled-brass version of the slider that wasn't introduced until 1918:

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1908/1908_belts.html

Given Charles Fisher died in 1916, I believe this photo has been misidentified.

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Interesting badge below (Calling Grumpy!)

Chris

47th (1/2nd London) Division.

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Not sure on that one - seems to be the wrong place of a TF ranging or efficiency "star" and a quick flip through Grumpy's book hasn't helped me

.

I am sure as I can be that the first picture shows the uniform of the 18th London (London Irish Rifles) - badges all fit, as do blackened buttons etc.

If so that is unlikely to be Charles Fisher I would have thought as his regimental affiliation is known.

It is the divisional patch of the 47th (2nd London) Division which ties in with him being in the 18th (London Irish) battalion, London Regiment.

47th (1/2nd London) Division.

Posted as I was typing and whilst my porridge was getting cold.

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I believe that High Wood is spot on. The 2nd photo shows a cadet of the London Irish Rifles Cadet Corps in undress rifle green frock with silver buttons and insignia.

The cap badge of the cadets was very similar to the pipers badge, viz a harp of Erin within a wreath of shamrock surmounted by a crown.

They may have been associated with a school, I am unsure of this, as the collar badge is unsusual. I think they existed from around 1902, when the Boer War led to a number of cadets corps being raised in London, including for the London Scottish.

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47th (1/2nd London) Division.

According to Taff Gillingham the 47th Div badge was not generally worn during the war, although there have been examples on the LLT, but more likely to be encountered post war.

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According to Taff Gillingham the 47th Div badge was not generally worn during the war, although there have been examples on the LLT, but more likely to be encountered post war.

If this is the right man, he died 1916. So an example of it being used during the war?

Unless the pics and names are in the wrong order.

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If this is the right man, he died 1916. So an example of it being used during the war?

Unless the pics and names are in the wrong order.

See my post no.12 - I believe the picture is early post-war, Squirrel's evidence adds more weight to that.

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See my post no.12 - I believe the picture is early post-war, Squirrel's evidence adds more weight to that.

That's my point. The name attributed to him died in 1916. so the names could be attributed to the wrong pics or may not be either of them.

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That's my point. The name attributed to him died in 1916. so the names could be attributed to the wrong pics or may not be either of them.

Which is what I said in post 12 - except I am in no doubt it has been misidentified...

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Second photo is what I believe to be the London Diocesan Church Lads Brigade.

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Wow what an amazing response from all of you in one day and how knowledgable you all are!

I can confirm that you guessed the correct Charles Stanley Fisher, who was born in 1899 and died in 1916. I think he must have been one of the early victims of the flu epidemic which I think peaked about 1918/9. So it looks like I have associated the wrong photo with him - this was what my oldest surviving relative, from whom I sourced the photo, had thought. Sadly it looks like I don't have a photo of Charles then - do you think I might be able to source one from somewhere? The family story was that he went to France but he is buried in Islington, London which always struck me as unusual, unless he was sent back when he became ill. I never heard mention of Aintree.

His elder brother was William George Fisher born in 1897. So it's looking like the first photo is William however I'm confused about the post war date as William enlisted on 21/11/1914 and was discharged 4 days later as "not likely to become an efficient soldier", according to the service record I obtained. Do you think he may have joined the Territorial Force after the war (ref the TF on his shoulder)? In his service record from 1914 he answered "no" to the question "have you ever served in any branch of the military". Would the cadet corps have counted? Of course he might have lied a bit about his age, as did Charles.

So the second photo might also show William in the Irish Rifles Cadet Corps a few years earlier? I didn't think they were the same person. My relative really couldn't identify the second photo so it was me that put two and two together (and made 5). Perhaps it's someone different entirely but I can't think who that would be.

I'm so grateful for your help.

Regards

Colin

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Charles Stanley FISHER, aged 17, died in the 1st Western General Hospital, Fazakerley.

He was buried on 23rd October 1916.

(Information from the Burial Register).

CGM

Edit:

From The Long, Long Trail:

1st Western General.

A TF General Hospital in Fazakerley, Liverpool. 153 officers and 4204 other ranks.

___

(Fits with Aintree, Liverpool.)

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Second photo is what I believe to be the London Diocesan Church Lads Brigade.

I think you are right Graham and it's not the London Irish Cadet Corps as I had first thought. The frock with its single cuff loop, the collar badge and waist belt, all fit with the Church Lads Brigade. Well spotted. Further such images can be seen online at the bhsproject.co.uk

I have not been able to find a cap badge that fits so I imagine that the London Diocesan insignia was special.

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