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Uniform & Busby - could anyone ID please?


terrac
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Hello everyone.

I wonder if someone could help me ID the uniform in this photograph. I'm not sure if it is before or after WW1? Someone may be able to tell by the medals?

It came from a box of photographs my grandmother had, we believe it is someone from that side of the family but sadly anyone who would know has since died long ago. There are a number of people it could possibly be from my great grandmothers brothers. I'm working through these to find out which regiments they belonged to.

The photographer appears to have been around in 1899 but isnt in the trade directory I found for 1913. I thought the busby maybe looked a bit like the Royal Engineers??? Perhaps someone could help please?

Regards

Ray

Untitled-18b_zps0c666af3.jpg

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I have seen similar ones for Royal Engineers but also for Artillery. There is a pic of a gunner somewhere

I'll see if I can find it. I agree more than likely pre war.

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It just looks as if the elaborate badge on the front of the bearskin looks like it could be a flaming grenade.

The identification of the medals would help date it.

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I think the hackle's wrong for R Fusiliers - this hackle looks white and the Fusiliers is red and white. Same goes for Northumberland Fusiliers, though the dimensions of the badge look about right for their busbyversion. Looks about right for RE, collar badges match, but I thought the flame on the busby badge would be less wide than it appears on this pic.

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Hello everyone.

I wonder if someone could help me ID the uniform in this photograph. I'm not sure if it is before or after WW1? Someone may be able to tell by the medals?

It came from a box of photographs my grandmother had, we believe it is someone from that side of the family but sadly anyone who would know has since died long ago. There are a number of people it could possibly be from my great grandmothers brothers. I'm working through these to find out which regiments they belonged to.

The photographer appears to have been around in 1899 but isnt in the trade directory I found for 1913. I thought the busby maybe looked a bit like the Royal Engineers??? Perhaps someone could help please?

Regards

Ray

He is Royal Artillery, Ray. Other ranks of the Royal Engineers did not wear a grenade collar badge at that time, only the officers did. His head dress is the then RA Full Dress Busby with white horsehair plume.

The unit is probably the 2nd East Riding of Yorkshire Royal Artillery Volunteers, who had a detachment based at Hull. They were a volunteer unit of part-time soldiers who manned the defensive guns for the port of Hull.

The fur busby was worn until 1878 by the artillery but may have taken longer to replace in the volunteers who had a lesser priority for new items of uniform (indeed one unit retained them anyway). I would date the photo to around 1890.

An enclosed colour image shows you the uniform shortly before collar badges (fuzed (i.e. flaming) grenades) were adopted.

"In 1860, as the British government feared invasion from the continent, the Secretary at War recommended the formation of Volunteer Artillery Corps to bolster Britain's coastal defences. The 1st Yorkshire (West Riding) Artillery Volunteer Corps was raised at Leeds on 2 August and the 2nd Yorkshire (West Riding) Artillery Volunteer Corps at Bradford on 10 October. They began as Coastal Artillery with 32 pounder guns. In 1886, they became Position Artillery with 40 pounder RBL guns. By 1871, the 1st had grown to eight batteries and the 2nd had become the 1st Admin Brigade, Yorkshire (West Riding) Artillery Volunteers, containing five Yorkshire (West Riding) Artillery Volunteer Corps, numbered the 2nd, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th. By 1880, a number of these Corps had been disbanded or absorbed and the Bradford Brigade became the 2nd Yorkshire (West Riding) Artillery Volunteers.

Various reforms from 1889 resulted in the units being renamed as 1st and 2nd West Riding of Yorkshire Artillery Volunteers, then the 1st and 2nd West Riding of Yorkshire Volunteer Artillery. In 1898, they became the 1st and 2nd West Riding of Yorkshire Royal Garrison Artillery (Volunteers) and were equipped with 4.7 inch QF Guns guns drawn by steam tractors."

post-599-0-86384000-1416999991_thumb.jpg

post-599-0-48120000-1417000554_thumb.jpg

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What do you reckon on the medals? I thought the first looks like East & West Africa, in which case more likely to be Regular army (or time expired regular, I suppose).

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What do you reckon on the medals? I thought the first looks like East & West Africa, in which case more likely to be Regular army (or time expired regular, I suppose).

I can't really make out the medals on the library monitor where I am. Is that a Khedive star furthest away? He may well be a regular member of the permenent staff, although these were mainly senior NCOs, there were a few rank and file in special roles. He might also be a time expired regular who has joined the volunteers, as you say.

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I can't really make out the medals on the library monitor where I am. Is that a Khedive star furthest away?

The image pixelates quite badly when I blow it up, so it's really hard to tell. It's hard to make out the bottom rim of the medal, which could fit the idea of Khedive's Star. At the top there's either an ornate suspender, or it's the 2 upper legs of a Star. Whatever it is it appears to extend to about the edge of the ribbon from what I can make out, so I reckon they're a bit too far apart for it to be the Star.

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I blew the image up as much as I could - also thinking that the third medal was a Khedive's Star (making one of the other medals possibly an Egypt 1882-1889 Medal). But it's not. It looks like an Army Long Service and Good Conduct Medal. Enlarged, the first medal looked like an Africa General Service Medal, but is probably not as a) it has no clasp and b. this pic looks pre-1902. So I would say an East and West Africa Medal without clasp. The second I couldn't make out.

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/41721.html

..is what an E&W Africa Medal looks like.

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Thank you for the input everyone it is very helpful and much appreciated.

If it is pre-1900 it could be my x2 great grandparents. I have 3 photographs of the Lady in the image but no idea whom she might be, she does have a look of my grandmother though when she got older.

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According to the Victorian Photographers website William Fussey was at that 43 Gt Thornton St address 1900-1908.. a Mrs Fussey loaned out cutlery from that address in 1899. Hmm.. Fussey was an interesting man, he was owner of a music hall and into a bit of all sorts in the late 1800's

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Thank you for the input everyone it is very helpful and much appreciated.

If it is pre-1900 it could be my x2 great grandparents. I have 3 photographs of the Lady in the image but no idea whom she might be, she does have a look of my grandmother though when she got older.

Both myself (post #8) and Staffsyeoman (post #11) think that he's wearing an East & West African campaign medal, apparently without clasp, so if you check your great-grandfather's name (and maybe other family names) against the medal roll you might be able to establish exactly who it is.....

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Both myself (post #8) and Staffsyeoman (post #11) think that he's wearing an East & West African campaign medal, apparently without clasp, so if you check your great-grandfather's name (and maybe other family names) against the medal roll you might be able to establish exactly who it is.....

I'll see if I can find him. The man I think it may be is called John Edward Leak. However there are quite a few John Leak's. Thank you again, i'll see what I can find cross referencing that, the medal and the Royal Artillery.

Kind Regards

Ray

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P.S., When I suggested checking it against the medal roll, I meant the East & West Africa medal roll, not the WW1 rolls!

I'll see if I can find him. The man I think it may be is called John Edward Leak. However there are quite a few John Leak's.

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Both myself (post #8) and Staffsyeoman (post #11) think that he's wearing an East & West African campaign medal, apparently without clasp, so if you check your great-grandfather's name (and maybe other family names) against the medal roll you might be able to establish exactly who it is.....

I personally think that the medals are the Egypt Medal without clasp (straight suspender); Army Long Service and Good Conduct Medal (ornate suspender) and Khedives Star.

Sepoy

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I personally think that the medals are the Egypt Medal without clasp (straight suspender); Army Long Service and Good Conduct Medal (ornate suspender) and Khedives Star.

Sepoy

I agree. The LS&GC would take precedence over a foreign medal like the Khedive star.

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I think the hackle's wrong for R Fusiliers - this hackle looks white and the Fusiliers is red and white. Same goes for Northumberland Fusiliers,

Royal Fusiliers was all white. Northumberland Fusiliers was white/red, adopted by the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers.

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I personally think that the medals are the Egypt Medal without clasp (straight suspender); Army Long Service and Good Conduct Medal (ornate suspender) and Khedives Star.

Sepoy

It is not a Egypt Medal as that is a ribbon of five equally spaced stripes, three blue, two white. The ribbon on the first medal is not equally spaced.

A Khedive's Star is a very recognisable five pointed, point down, lump of bronze with a straight suspender. There is nothing like that on the picture.

All three - when enlarged - are circular, and the last has an ornate suspender, pointing to an Army Long Service and Good Conduct Medal.

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It is not a Egypt Medal as that is a ribbon of five equally spaced stripes, three blue, two white. The ribbon on the first medal is not equally spaced.

A Khedive's Star is a very recognisable five pointed, point down, lump of bronze with a straight suspender. There is nothing like that on the picture.

All three - when enlarged - are circular, and the last has an ornate suspender, pointing to an Army Long Service and Good Conduct Medal.

Sorry Staffsyeoman but I disagree.

The last medal, in my humble opinion, is a Khedives Star which has a circular design, has a straight suspender bearing the Crescent and Star which makes it look ornate.

The points are also visible! It is just the lighting which maked them appear faint.

With regards to Medal ribbons, they can also look odd in black and white photographs.

The only real way to answer this question is if Ray can re-scan the photograph to just show the medals.

Sepoy

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OK; I tried again with different software and change my mind about the last medal - agreed, the last medal IS a Khedive's Star. Apologies. This will make one of the other two medals an 1882-89 Egypt Medal. But for now I stand by the first one being an East and West Africa Medal and the stripe spacing not being equal. Fully aware of the tricks that B&W photography plays on ribbons - the dead end discussions I have had over WW2 Stars under such conditions.

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The most likely combination is in my opinion:

Ashantee medal(no clasp); Egypt(no clasp) and Khedive's Star.

The East and West Africa(1887-1900) would follow the Egypt(1882-1889) Surely? The ribbon on the first medal is definitely not that for the Egypt medal.

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