BEF 1914 - Early Disembarkation and Survivability

[Toby Brayley]

it is interesting to note that on page 22 of the 11th Hussars History by L.R Lumley, Brigadier General Briggs is asked in Aldershot just prior to the 11th leaving for France what sort of casualties he expected? He is quoted as saying "commanding officers should expect to lose 50% of their regiments in the first week!"

[Guest]

Sample of the first 500 men on the 1914-15 Star medal roll of the 1st Royal Inniskilling Fus who embarked on 17 Mar 1915* in the Dardanelles:

47% fatalities

33% fatalities on the Gallipoli Peninsula

23% discharged before the end of the war

14% discharged at the end of the war

14% still serving in 1919.

Note the ledgers are sub-categorised and hitting the ledgers with serving men has changed the data somewhat.

* Note the medal roll records the embarkation date rather than the date of arrival in theatre. We know from the diaries that 98% of these men subsequently landed on 25th Apr 1915 on the Gallipoli peninsula.

Edited: Updated numbers for larger samples: 300, 400, 500

[Guest]

I am about to re-kindle this thread.

 

Grenadier Guards 1914  Star data

 

1st Bn Grenadier Guards

1,816 disembarkations

448 fatalities during the war

Fatality ratio of 24.7%

 

2nd Bn Grenadier Guards

1,745 disembarkations

556 fatalities

Fatality ratio of 31.8%

 

Note: 6 other fatalities not aligned with either battalion.

 

Grenadier Guards Old Contemtibles:

Overall 3,561 disemabrakations

1,010 fatalities

Fatality ratio of 28.4% 

 

 

 

Edited 23 December , 2017 by Guest

[Derek Black]

Martin,

 

The Black Watch 1914 Star

1st Btn
1,940 Disembarkations
769 Died
Fatality Ratio - 39.6%

2nd Btn
943 disembarkations
379 died
Fatality Ratio - 40.2%

1st/5th Btn
815 Disembarkations
129 Died
Fatality Ratio - 15.8%

Overall figures
3,698 Disembarkations
1,277 Died
Fatality Ratio - 34.5%

Derek.

Edited 1 February , 2017 by Derek Black
updating of more accurate figures due to error correcting and deeper investigation for data not present on rolls

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Derek Black said:

Martin,

 

The Black Watch 1914 Star
Overall figures
3,704 Disembarkations
1,238 Died
Fatality Ratio - 33.4%

Derek.

 

 

Derek. Thank you for sharing this data. Within the 1st and 2nd Battalions, the heavy skew towards the 1st Battalion is very telling given the markedly different arrival times and the relative periods on the Western Front. 

 

I have previously done some preliminary sampling of the Cameron Highlanders data (Army Troops but eventually attached to the same Brigade as 1st Bn Black Watch). The analysis is slightly easier as their 2nd Bn missed the cut-off date for the 1914 Star, ditto their TF battalions, so we have similar situation to the 2nd Bn Royal Sussex Regt in that all 1914 Star men were heading towards a single battalion.

 

The Cameron Highlanders had the unenviable honour of suffering the highest number of battalion fatalities in 1914 at 584. More importantly this was a staggering 40% higher than any other single battalion in 1914. By extension we would expect to see a high skew in overall fatalities and the proportion suffered in 1914 and within a calendar year. 

 

Initial numbers based on a large sample indicate somewhere in the region of 42% - 44% fatalities, of which four in every five occurred within a year of disembarkation. . The Battalion saw slightly more than 1900 Other Ranks disembark in 1914 (there are some duplications that need to be weeded out). On 31st Oct the war diary recorded losses of 38 Officers and 1,000 Other Ranks in the prior two weeks alone. While not representative of the 'average' experience of a BEF battalion it does, along with the likes of the Black Watch data provide some idea of just how heavy the fighting was in 1914 for some unfortunate battalions.   MG

Edited 25 September , 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

1st Bn Cameron Highlanders. Passed the half way point of scrubbing down the 1,900 names on the 1914 Star roll. Finding lots of duplicates. 

 

For the First cohort that disembarked on 14th Aug 1914 it looks as if fatalities were 48%, which is probably as bad as could be during the war. Notably, not a single man was killed in 1918 from this cohort. The skew towards the first 12 months is four fatalities out of every five. 

 

More disturbingly, over half this cohort's fatalities occurred within 90 days. Close to two thirds of all this cohort's fatalities in the whole war happened before the end of First Ypres. 

 

The numbers may change , however the data is listed alphabetically so it is unlikely to change much. Any mistakes are mine. MG

Edited 26 September , 2016 by Guest

[Muerrisch]

Randall Nicol makes an amazing [to me] claim p 400 "Till the trumpet ..............."

 

18 officers and 250 men who went out with 1st bn SG August 1914, and 2nd in October,

 

were serving in the SG in 1919.

 

I am astonished that the numbers are so high, given that SG were one of the hardest hit if not the hardest.

 

Comment anyone, please?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

Randall Nicol makes an amazing [to me] claim p 400 "Till the trumpet ..............."

 

18 officers and 250 men who went out with 1st bn SG August 1914, and 2nd in October,

 

were serving in the SG in 1919.

 

I am astonished that the numbers are so high, given that SG were one of the hardest hit if not the hardest.

 

Comment anyone, please?

Recovered wounded and returned POWs.

 

This battalion was left standing with fewer than 120 men at one stage.

 

Why 2nd October? They received drafts before this date. Not sure why this date is meaningful. Is there confusion here with the disembarkation of 2nd Bn on 7th October? 

 

1st Reinforcement:  One officer and 91 Other Ranks arrived on 5th Sep 1914

2nd Reinforcement: One officer and 93 Other Ranks arrived on 7th Sep 1914

3rd Reinforcement:  3 Officers and 50 Other Ranks arrived on 9th Oct 1914

4th Reinforcement:  51 Other Ranks arrived on 5th Nov 1914

5th Reinforcement:  one Officer and 51 Other Ranks arrived on 6th Nov 1914

6th Reinforcement:  4 Officers and 89 Other Ranks arrived on 18th Nov 1914

7th Reinforcement:  2 Officers and 100 Other Ranks arrived on 20th Nov 1914

8th Reinforcement:  One Officer and 100 Other Ranks arrived on 3rd Dec 1914

 

Total: 13 Officers and 625 Other Ranks. The 1914 Star medal Roll would indicate these drafts were almost entirely Reservists from the UK. Given roughly 1,000 originals means around 1,625 total.  ... 250 as a percent of this is less than 16%. It still feels 'high' to me and I suspect the data might include the 2nd Bn meaning the numbers would roughly halve. My speculation. 

 

Separately, the 1914 Star medal roll shows 46 officers served with the 1st Bn Scots Guards. Of these 37 were casualties:

18 KIA

4 DOW

1 Died

3 POW

11 WIA

9 Unscathed

 

Adding up the unscathed, POW and WIA comes to 16, so something is slightly amiss. 

 

 

Edited 10 November , 2016 by Guest

[TwoEssGee]

He does include the 2nd Battalion.

 

18 Officers and 250 men who originally went out with either the 1st Bn in August 1914 or with the 2nd Bn in October 1914 were still serving Scots Guardsmen in 1919, and this would indeed include the returned wounded, those by then serving at home and those who were repatriated Prisoners of War. I don't have accurate numbers to hand, but I think quite a large proportion of these men would have been PoW's.

[Muerrisch]

Martin and TwoEssGee thank you: Martin misread my post re. 2nd bn and the Nicol figures are, I take it, a total for the regiment.

 

I originally took the claim to refer to two battalions' worth, 1st in August, 2nd in October, so a little over 2000 all ranks. This discounts drafts.

 

I also did not consider PoWs as "still serving", although that was both factually and unkindly wrong. It was a harsh captivity bravely borne by most.

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Martin and TwoEssGee thank you: Martin misread my post re. 2nd bn and the Nicol figures are, I take it, a total for the regiment.

 

I originally took the claim to refer to two battalions' worth, 1st in August, 2nd in October, so a little over 2000 all ranks. This discounts drafts.

 

I also did not consider PoWs as "still serving", although that was both factually and unkindly wrong. It was a harsh captivity bravely borne by most.

 

The 1914 Star rolls should have over 2,600 names. They come in a little shy of 1900 meaning 700 are floating on other medal rolls (prepared in 1917).  Assuming 2,000 and 250 survivors still serving in 1919, this equates to 12.5%. Given the high POW ratio in 1914, this is not exactly a startling figure in my view. A more meaningful figure would be to know how many were still serving on Armistice day. I suspect significantly fewer. 

[TwoEssGee]

I would think that there were very few "originals" still serving with either battalion near Maubeuge on Armistice Day.

 

Two of the officers who served the longest with the Battalions were the QM's David Kinlay and Tom Ross, but both had gone back to England earlier in the year. Kinlay was sick and Tom Ross was possibly on leave. 

 

Sir Victor MacKenzie, who was a Captain in 1914 was CO of the 1st Battalion and probably the only remaining officer of the original 59 (28 with 1SG and 31 with 2SG). Twenty Nine of the original officers had been killed or died.

 

Of the other 15, ten were Prisoners of War, two others were commanding training establishments at home, and the remaining 3 could have been at RHQ or Extra Regimentally employed.

 

There are a few candidates, but I'm not sure if they were still "officially" Scots Guardsmen.

[Derek Black]

I'm slowly ploughing my way though the 1915 star roll for the B.W.

 

So far I've transcribed the first 2000 entries, of these 730 died, making the fatality rate 36.5%
Of the 2000 some 546 men initially deployed with the 1st & 2nd btns, 246 died, making the fatality rate of the regular battalions 45%.

Would it be the case the regular btns were harder hit because they were given the spearhead roles, compared with the Territorials and Kitchener btns who were more likely act in supporting ones during an offensive?

Derek.
 

[Guest]

Derek . Many thanks for the update. I hope to consolidate this thread into an article one day and hope i can use som eof the results of your and others' great efforts. 

MG

[Guest]

Grenadier Guards 1914  Star data (revised). I have recently done a detailed transcription of the Grenadier Guards' medal rolls. What I had not realised is that while the 1914 Star roll is annotated with the men who were killed, the records were incomplete as the rolls were compiled in early 1918. They did not capture the men who were MIA and later established as KIA and did not capture men killed from late 1917 onward. The adjustments add another 120 killed or died as a result of the war. Here are the revised figures (all cross referenced with CWGC data)

 

1st Bn Grenadier Guards

1914 Star

1,814 disembarkations

500 fatalities 

Fatality ratio of 27.6%

 

1st Cohort (disembarked on 6th Oct 1914)

1,013 disembarkations

324 fatalities

Fatality ratio 32.0%

 

 

2nd Bn Grenadier Guards

1914 Star

1,743 disembarkations

630 fatalities

Fatality ratio of 36.8%

 

1st Cohort (disembarked on 13th Aug 1914)

1,003 disembarkations

385 fatalities

Fatality ratio 38.4%

 

Note: 6 other fatalities not aligned with either battalion.

 

Grenadier Guards Old Contemtibles:

Overall 3,557 disemabarkations

1,130 fatalities

Fatality ratio of 31.8% 

 

The 2nd Battalion disembarked in August 1914 and suffered significantly higher fatalities (proportionally) to the 1st Bn which disembarked in Oct 1914. From Mid 1915 onward both battalions were in the same Division (Guards Div). The skews towards the first 12 months in theatre are very interesting:

 

1st Bn: 56% of all 1914 Star fatalities occurred within 12 months of disembarkation

2nd Bn: 82% of all 1914 Star fatalities occurred within 12 months of disembarkation.

 

In this regiment, early disembarkation was ore lethal and the attraition in both 'First Cohorts' far exceeds the average fatality ration of the British Army for the whole war. 

Edited 21 March , 2017 by Guest

[Derek Black]

Fascinating as always Martin.

 

How many star rolls have you stats for now?
It'd be interesting to see how they compare with regard to the month in 1914 the first cohorts arrived in the field.

 

Derek.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Derek Black said:

Fascinating as always Martin.

 

How many star rolls have you stats for now?
It'd be interesting to see how they compare with regard to the month in 1914 the first cohorts arrived in the field.

 

Derek.

 

I have around thirty Battalion star rolls at various stages of transcription. The penny has dropped that the rolls when annotated were incomplete records and need to be cross checked against the CWGC. I am using Excel spreadsheets and downloaded the CWGC data. I have to revisit all the rolls. By using the VLOOKUP function I can automatically populate the data (it finds matches in Army Number and then adds the CWGC data to the Star rolls). It is an extremely useful function and saves hundreds of man hours when trying to splice two separate data sets. It also eliminates human error and increases the integrity of the database. 

 

By adding the CWGC data I can also compare the Star roll fatality dates with the CWGC. I have 99 records where the CWGC date differs from the medal roll fatality dates  - which raises questions over the integrity of both sets of data. Some differ by as much as 28 days and are not explained by DOW.

 

Similarly by using the VLOOKUP function I can trawl the BWM roll and add the number of the battalion for each man on the 1915 Star roll (the 1915 Star roll lumped all four Battalions together with no Battalion annotation) which has neatly allocated the 4,768 Grenadier Guards with the 1915 Star to their original battalions. probably saved a week's work in about 20 seconds and incidentally has enabled me to rebuild the original cohorts of the 3rd and 4th Battalions as well as the drafts.  It is a major breakthrough and (I think) the only record that does this. When finished these rolls will be added to the Grenadier Guards diaries.

 

I have also 'linked' each man by his disembarkation date to the relevant date in the diary with ahyperlink. Simply clicking the disembarkation date takes one immediately to the right point in the diary in a fraction of a second. It establishes a solid link for over 8,000 individuals on the 1914 and 1915 Star across four separate battalions. 

 

I hope to have the 1915 Star rolls finished soon. It will be interesting to see if their fates differed markedly. For the Grenadiers I have 10 rolls: 

1914 Star: 1st and 2nd Bns -.....................3,584 names

1915 Star: 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Bns.........4,768 names

BWM & VM: ditto........................................15,640 names which will of course included the 8,352 names on the Star rolls.

 

Close to 24,000 records. All linked to the diaries and searchable in a fraction of a second. It is a thing of wonder. MG

Edited 21 March , 2017 by Guest

[Derek Black]

1 hour ago, QGE said:

By using the VLOOKUP function I can automatically populate the data (it finds matches in Army Number and then adds the CWGC data to the Star rolls).

 

By adding the CWGC data I can also compare the Star roll fatality dates with the CWGC. I have 99 records where the CWGC date differs from the medal roll fatality dates  - which raises questions over the integrity of both sets of data. Some differ by as much as 28 days and are not explained by DOW

Martin,

30 rolls is a sizable amount of data!

It's not just death dates i've encountered that vary, soldiers numbers are sometimes mangled on CWGC, particularly 3rd btn men with a 3/ number, they can be scanned onto CWGC as 31.

I wish i knew how to do whatever process you're using, it sounds like a labour saving delight!

Cheers,
Derek.

[Willh1664]

Hello,

 

I have been sent here  from another post. I am currently half way through breaking down the 1914 star roll for the Scots guards. But it seems as though that they have not seperated the men into seperate btn's on paper which is a pain.

 

I shall report back in due course and the results shall be open for anyone to have and view.

 

Thanks,

 

Will

[Guest]

Grenadier Guards

 

1914 Star: 3,557 names. 31.8% fatality ratio

1915 Star: 4,768 names. 32.8% fatality ratio

Combined: 8,325 names. 32.3% fatality ratio

 

It would appear that the experiences of the men who disembarked within the dates of the 1914-15 Star was just as bad as that experienced by the Old Contemptibles. 

 

Another way of looking at this: fatalities among those who volunteered to fight (rather than Conscripts) was close to 1 in 3. According to the BWM and VM Roll some 15640 men served in the Grenadier Guards. Reversing the data out we get  an implies fatality ratio of 29% for Grenadier Guards who were Conscripts - marginally lower than the grim data for the volunteer period. 

 

MG

[Guest]

On 22/03/2017 at 04:04, Willh1664 said:

Hello,

 

I have been sent here  from another post. I am currently half way through breaking down the 1914 star roll for the Scots guards. But it seems as though that they have not seperated the men into seperate btn's on paper which is a pain.

 

I shall report back in due course and the results shall be open for anyone to have and view.

 

Thanks,

 

Will

 

The trick is to back-fit the Battalion number from the BWM & VM rolls which records the Battalion when the men first 'qualified' i.e. the first battalion they served in overseas. Also after a while you will get a feel for which drafts ended up in which Battalion. The 1914 Star Rolls are typically 1,700 to 1,800 men per Battalion. Of these, roughly speaking 1,000 will share the same disembarkation dates of 13th Aug 1914 (1st Bn SG) and 1,000 share the disembarkation date of 7th Oct 1914 (2nd Bn). The other dates will largely cluster around drafts of around 95 men each (or multiples thereof) and generally speaking each draft will end up in one or the other Battalion if the other Guards' medal rolls are any indication, One should be able to rebuild the First Cohorts and the main reinforcement drafts at the very least.

 

As an example I have managed to identify the original battalion for 98% of the men on the Grenadier Guards 1914-15 Star roll from the data on the BWM &VM rolls. There are 96 men who do not appear on the BWM Roll (presumably posted elsewhere). Of these, 10 can be identified through the CWGC data leaving just 86 men or just 1.8% of the 4,768 men on the rolls. 

 

I hope this helps.

 

Martin.

[Guest]

1st Bn Border Regiment (Gallipoli)

 

1914-15 Star. 2,048 named men. 838 fatalities. Ratio of 40.9%

First Cohort: 742 identified. 342 fatalities. ratio of 46.1%

 

The caveat is that around 250 men who probably were present on 25th April 1915 (disembarkation date) had been transferred by the time the roll was complied. If we assume a nominal roll or 1,000, the fatalities would be around 34%. This of course assumes that none of the tranferred men were killed, which is probably unrealistic. MG

Edited 21 March , 2017 by Guest

[Willh1664]

On 21/03/2017 at 18:38, QGE said:

 

The trick is to back-fit the Battalion number from the BWM & VM rolls which records the Battalion when the men first 'qualified' i.e. the first battalion they served in overseas. Also after a while you will get a feel for which drafts ended up in which Battalion. The 1914 Star Rolls are typically 1,700 to 1,800 men per Battalion. Of these, roughly speaking 1,000 will share the same disembarkation dates of 13th Aug 1914 (1st Bn SG) and 1,000 share the disembarkation date of 7th Oct 1914 (2nd Bn). The other dates will largely cluster around drafts of around 95 men each (or multiples thereof) and generally speaking each draft will end up in one or the other Battalion if the other Guards' medal rolls are any indication, One should be able to rebuild the First Cohorts and the main reinforcement drafts at the very least.

 

As an example I have managed to identify the original battalion for 98% of the men on the Grenadier Guards 1914-15 Star roll from the data on the BWM &VM rolls. There are 96 men who do not appear on the BWM Roll (presumably posted elsewhere). Of these, 10 can be identified through the CWGC data leaving just 86 men or just 1.8% of the 4,768 men on the rolls. 

 

I hope this helps.

 

Martin.

Hi Martin,

Quite honestly i completely disregarded the dates of entry into france, thank you for reminding me. This time i have used each mans regimental number in a bid to create a full list of names for the original men of the battalions.

 

Although you've done some great work,it all seems to lead to one harrowing truth,the chance of making it to the other end of the war as an original was nearly impossible as an other rank and even more so as an officer.

 

Thanks,

 

Will

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Willh1664 said:

Although you've done some great work,it all seems to lead to one harrowing truth,the chance of making it to the other end of the war as an original was nearly impossible as an other rank and even more so as an officer.

 

Thanks,

 

Will

 

Your analysis of the Scots Guards data will be interesting. They allegedly has the highest battle casualty ratios of any Regiment in the British Army - something that itself is cause for analysis. The first cohort data will be grim reading. It is (I think) important to add the disembarkation date as we will then be able to see if the fates of the Originals and the subsequent reinforcements differed in any way. One can also do some interesting analysis on when the Reservists started to dominate the data and the later drafts of post Aug 1914 recruits. The Guards are a useful area of study as the data is relatively clean and not mixed with TF data. 

 

The medal rolls contain some fascinating but hidden information which can only be seen when the data is transcribed into a format that can be sorted and sifted. There are underlying patterns in the shifting sands of the data which become clear when it is filtered or manipulated (in a good way). It can tell us a lot about the intensity of the war at Battalion level and importantly often tells us a lot about the non-fatal casualties. My interest is in the early part of the war and how the regular Army, Army Reservists, Special Reservists and their Kitchener replacements were systematically annihilated in turn. 

 

I think an infantryman serving in a front line unit on the Western Front for the duration of the war had about a one in three chance of being killed and a nine in ten chance of being wounded at some stage. I think these are conservative figures. What is very clear from the analysis is the disproportionate burden of battle casualties borne by the infantry on the Western Front: 65% by number and 85% of the fatalities. One might add Gallipoli to that group as well. 

 

There is a marked characteristic that 'First Cohorts' were generally the hardest hit - whether they were the Old Contemptibles of Aug 1914 or the later arrivals (7th Div Oct 1914) or the Kitchener Battalions in Aug 1915 (Gallipoli) or Sep 1915 (Loos). I have not yet studied the early TF formations on the Western Front and it would be interesting to see their 'first cohort' data.  The data for the 42nd (East Lancs) Div TF battalions at Gallipoli was as bad as anything I have seen on the Western Front.

 

If there was a 'learning curve', the lessons were not being applied effectively in 1915. The ghastly attrition of 1914 was repeated in the subsequent reinforcement drafts in late 1914 and throughout 1915. The Grenadier Guards are interesting in this aspect as we can analyse and compare the fates of the 2nd Bn (Aug 1914), 1st Bn (Oct 1914),  - both battalions annihilated - with the 3rd and 4th Bns (Aug 1915). The fatality data of the 1915 first cohorts looks slightly worse than the 1914 cohorts. By tomorrow I should have a breakdown of all the data in minute detail. When you have done the Scots Guards it would be interesting to compare given they fought in the same formations.

 

The History of the Grenadier Guards Vol III has an appendix with a table  of the casualties sustained by each of the Foot Guards regiments. The ratio of killed: wounded is markedly different across units. The differences are extremely large and warrant some detailed investigation.

 

It is worth noting that different regiments maintained their records in slightly different ways. Some consolidated every battalion into one roll, others separated them. Some annotated them with details such as Discharged Time Expired or Discharged Medically Unfit etc. Some were not quite as diligent. Most 1914 Star and 1915 Star rolls are incomplete records and need to be refined. I am close to finishing a mammoth task of the Grenadier Guards rolls; 24,000 separate records and about 200,000 data points. The Grenadiers kept good records relating to DTE and DMU and transferred.  Roughly speaking 17% of Grenadier Guards on the 1914 Star roll were Discharged, including 13% Discharged Medically Unfit - a reasonable proxy for those who were wounded and did not fully recover. At risk of stating the obvious, men who were discharged were less likely to become fatal casualties; as the base diminishes there are fewer and fewer 'original' men left to become casualties. This 'diminishing base effect' heavily skews the fatality data towards the start period and we have to be cautious about drawing any conclusions from this base effect; is not well understood, particularly as it relates to permanent non-fatal battle casualties (discharged wounded). 

 

What is interesting is that the rolls are exposing gaps between other data sets, particularly the CWGC data. I have a number of men who were recorded as killed on the rolls who do not appear on the CWGC data. 

 

Martin

[Derek Black]

1 hour ago, QGE said:

What is interesting is that the rolls are exposing gaps between other data sets, particularly the CWGC data. I have a number of men who were recorded as killed on the rolls who do not appear on the CWGC data.

I found a couple of Black Watch men who were KIA at Loos missing from CWGC as a result of comparing the info.

They're now added to the site.

Frustratingly there were men who i knew (from newspaper reports) that had been discharged before the date the star roll was compiled, that had nothing to indicate as such in their entry.

 

Similarly not all men applied for the SWB. However many hundreds of enlistment dates were gleaned from those who had.
 

Derek.

Edited 23 March , 2017 by Derek Black
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