HOLES IN 303 CASES?

[MikB]

It's clear that in Michael's photo fired cases have been used, and the state of the bullets suggests these may have been recovered fired projectiles too - or else extracted from live rounds by cutting the case below the shoulder and peeling away the brass around the neck, to avoid chewing up the bullet by twisting it out with pliers (the varnish sealant is very stubborn, almost like araldite or superglue). Kinetic extractors like those used by reloaders today were pretty much unknown as commercial products before the 1960s, would be very hard for frontline soldiers to make without at least basic machine tools, and only work with some difficulty on 303 rounds anyway.

If the 2 cases in original pic were intended for trench art, it did occur to me that the soldiers involved, having seen ammunition roughly handled in many harsh conditions without incident, might've had a fairly hard-boiled attitude and considered the risks of using live rounds trivial, especially if some kind of base plaque was going to block access to the primers when finished.

Perhaps someone in authority saw what they were doing and ordered them to deactivate the rounds first - and when they tried that, they found the work too time-consuming to carry on with?

Regards,

MikB

[calibre792x57.y]

I rather think that the vast majority of 'trench art' objects never saw a trench, but were made not by soldiers but by the local traders for sale to the booming tourist business of the Twenties. Dealing with large numbers of identical cartridges it is all too easy to forget where you are in the process of making them safe (or reloading them), unless you adopt an organised system, as most reloaders who have reloaded two or three hundred Colt 0.45 ACP before a match would agree. - SW

[steve10]

Great info again gents. Thank you Michael for your advice and the link to the trench art site. I had a good look, and although it doesn't appeal to me, the skill and thought that has gone into some of those items is pretty impressive. At this point I don't see there is much more that can be added, but you never know. So thanks again one and all for your much valued input. I have learned so much in a short time from this forum. I find myself leaning toward the trench art hypothesis. To add a little more weight to this, out of curiosity I measured the distance of the holes from the rim. They are identical to the nearest half mm, which makes me think there was something creative intended. MikB I still like your cheese cutter idea, as does my wife. She could finally see a use for all this brass!

yours gratefully

Steve

[Ogilwy]

Gent's,

Items like this that we locate during archaeological excavations form an important part of my PhD. I have several examples of 'unusual stuff' being done to SAA including a couple of examples that are catagorically tampering, (the term for interfering with ammunition in an unauthorised and unproscribed manner). This occurrs in both sides trenches and I have examples of both .303 and 7.92mm that have encountered a board soldier with a good idea!

Under controled conditions the effects of an initiation of the propellant outside of the weapon chamber ranges from relatively little to catastrophic (for Low Explosive) but varies from round to round. The rupturing of the cartridge case and ejection of the primer are the norm. The bullet will normally be ejected but not at any significant velocity. That said I have seen the case wall rupture at the shoulder and the bullet remain in the case mouth on several occasions.

I think that the answer to the conundrum why the grooves and holes? Is probably that it is unanswerable with the sole existing evidence. It goes down the line that we see at work all the time, soldiers when board do stuff! There is no rhyme or reason some times it is just one individuals 'Bright Idea' at the time. The trench art line is as good as any, give Nick Saunders a shout and ask him if he has anything similar, you can possibly reach him through Bristol Uni.

As someone who now teaches explosive safety, explosive handling as well as specific natures and EOD, (I'm far to old for the Operational side apparently (except when everyone's stuck!)), the dissassemling of ammunition is exceptionally dangerous. I have even seen a Gent receive fragmentation injuries whilst 'Inerting' SAA! It should only be conducted in an authorised location, by authorised and trained personnel. I understand that the legality of the modification of ammunition is also a point that needs to be considered, but as I only do Bombs and Bullets an expert in the law would be needed to comment on that.

I have worked for 35 years to keep people safe with ammunition and explosives in various situations and locations. As a professional in this and after the numerous courses and qualifications gained, i can say that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and it is not the realm of the enthusiastic amateur ! This forum is the province of the safe and sound, but as I get all the reports at work there are those out there who decidedly are not! I hope never to see a member from here at work and I'm sure that would not happen, long may it continue.

Sorry about the long tome. I hope that in some way this is useful.

All the Best,

Rod

[steve10]

Very helpful thanks Rod, and I apologise for being amateur and enthusiastic.

[MikB]

I have worked for 35 years to keep people safe with ammunition and explosives in various situations and locations. As a professional in this and after the numerous courses and qualifications gained, i can say that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and it is not the realm of the enthusiastic amateur ! This forum is the province of the safe and sound, but as I get all the reports at work there are those out there who decidedly are not! I hope never to see a member from here at work and I'm sure that would not happen, long may it continue.

I think I'll have to agree to disagree with you there. I won't apologise for being an enthusiastic amateur for the last 50-odd years, and I think I know well enough what's safe and what's not. Of course, not knowing the level of knowledge and/or experience others have, I wouldn't necessarily recommend those others to do some things I've done - and knowing the limitations of my own knowledge and experience, there are plenty of things I'd leave very well alone (artillery ammunition, or any sort of bomb or mine, for example).

But in the case in point, I don't think the light application of good hand tools (at least the file was sharp !), with some thickness of metal between the site of the work and the primer, represents much of a hazard.

Regards,

MikB

[Ogilwy]

MikB,

As you rightly point out there are some very capable non-full time people. For the good reason you state I can never condone anyone attempting any action as their level of competence is unknown.

I think my biggest problem is that having dealt with the aftermath of enthusiastic amateurs we enter the one part that makes me hate my job. Hopefully that will never occur again and sincerely I hope everyone always takes that moment to think before that good idea becomes a bad action.

I have seen similar marks created by a blade not a file, it is hard to determine if this is the case without a high mag image of the cut. Interesting but without other evidence that is all I'd take to a court.

Once my PhD is published I'll post a couple of the one's I have. One is not only very interesting but also reasonably funny as well, (as long as you weren't the mental pigmy who tampered with the ammunition).

Yours Aye,

Rod

[MikB]

MikB,

As you rightly point out there are some very capable non-full time people. For the good reason you state I can never condone anyone attempting any action as their level of competence is unknown.

I think my biggest problem is that having dealt with the aftermath of enthusiastic amateurs we enter the one part that makes me hate my job. Hopefully that will never occur again and sincerely I hope everyone always takes that moment to think before that good idea becomes a bad action.

I have seen similar marks created by a blade not a file, it is hard to determine if this is the case without a high mag image of the cut. Interesting but without other evidence that is all I'd take to a court.

Once my PhD is published I'll post a couple of the one's I have. One is not only very interesting but also reasonably funny as well, (as long as you weren't the mental pigmy who tampered with the ammunition).

Yours Aye,

Rod

OK, but FWIW I'd say the cuts were made with a three-square or half-round needle or Swiss file, and I'd expect unit armourers would've had these. The hole in the top case is clean, but the bottom one shows a little deformation burring, as if done with a rather dull drillbit. Even so, it would only have taken a few turns of a hand-drill to break through, and wouldn't've risked cooking-off the primer, or driven dangerously-hot swarf into the cordite. But I'd agree, you certainly need the imagination to visualise side-effects when you do stuff like this.

Regards,

MikB

[David Filsell]

Early in my professional life I was advised: "the fool seeks advice from amateurs , the intelligent seeks it from experts". It's worked for me.

[Gunner Bailey]

I rather think that the vast majority of 'trench art' objects never saw a trench, but were made not by soldiers but by the local traders for sale to the booming tourist business of the Twenties. Dealing with large numbers of identical cartridges it is all too easy to forget where you are in the process of making them safe (or reloading them), unless you adopt an organised system, as most reloaders who have reloaded two or three hundred Colt 0.45 ACP before a match would agree. - SW

SW.

True in one respect. Trench art was probably never made in front line trenches. However there is ample photographic evidence of mainly French and Belgian troops hammering away whilst out of the front line. There is a French Trench Art book which costs about 60 euros which shows many photos of trench art being made in the field / back areas and camps.

I have a house in France and an elderly couple in my street showed me their family made trench art. Their mantlepiece has about 20 items made from shells that their grandfather and his brother brought them all home with them on leave during the war. Most definately not tourist pieces or post war. I also have a number of items of Trench Art made by my grandfather and brought home as gifts for the family. He was a Sapper and had good access to tools and made these items himself.

So assuming that all trench art was made post WW1 by non combatants is completely wrong.

I had always assumed that items like the corsetted shell cases were made on a machine post war. However this is not the case. They were all hand made. Firstly filled with molten lead then hammered over a long period. When finished the shell was heated and the lead poured out into the next shell. It's easy to make false assumptions about trench art I've done it myself, but now know a little better.

Yes there will be some trench art that was made for the 1920's tourist trade but don't assume it all was.

John

[calibre792x57.y]

G.B. Just to confound my own post I once found the base of an 18 Pdr shell case in the field to the offside of the Carnoy - Montauban road where the German line had once ran. It had been cut down so as to form quite a passable ashtray. I was however thinking of the more complex pieces when I posted. I confess to having no real interest in trench art.- SW

[Gunner Bailey]

SW

I would never state case proven as we all hopefully learn something every day. Like you I did at one time think a lot of Trench Art was post war made but I have been buying and selling it for the last 10 years and have learned more as time goes on. I have also seen part completed trench art in relic boxes and at brocantes. I think Trench Art is a neglected area in the UK. There are collectors but the real knowledge seems to be in France.

As I said in my previous post, I too thought that some of the complex work such a corsetted shells were post war but I was wrong. We live and learn.

John

[MikB]

The Trench Art display at Compton Verney earlier this year showed quite a few photos of soldiers making the goods, presumably in rear areas.