HOLES IN 303 CASES?

[steve10]

Hi all.

Any thoughts on these? I've been scratching my head for a bit. Looks pretty crude if they were for training purposes and they don't work as a whistle.

Both head stamped with 'C', I don't think cordite would come out of that hole.

Thanks any suggestions appreciated.

Steve

[gew98]

A file stroke to allow drill bit a centerpoint without slipping bending/breaking the drill bit. Bottom cartridge appears to have crimp monkeyed with. Anyhow while cordite may not come out with such a hole.... oils or solvents injected in the case or case submerged in same could liquify the cordite and it could then flow out. But more than likely the propellant was removed by pulling the bullets and case drilled to show they were deactivated. If you don't find a cardboard wad behind the bullets - they have been pulled previously. All the 303 surplus I broke down had a little cardboard wad placed on the cordite before the bullet was seated.

[Andrew Upton]

Certain early drill rounds had holes put in them to help differentiate them from live rounds - most of the pictures are now gone from the thread linked below, but one that remains on page 2 shows such holes. Possibly a home-made version due to shortages, etc? This would also help explain the recrimping marks:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=147801&page=2

[steve10]

Thanks gents very helpful. Appreciate the link to the thread Andrew, Tony at his best (as always). gew98 I had a look for the cardboard wad, and found it. Along with a small spanner, so to speak. Let me explain. In the photo the bottom case is just that, no bullet, nothing inside and no primer. The top one on the other hand turned out to be the complete opposite and I mean complete! I find myself scratching my head again. Any thoughts? Would a re-load work or be safe with that hole? What would it do to a rifle if anything?

[Richard Matlock]

Re load would blow up and wouldn't be done, I recently got some second war dated 303 and was speaking to a collector he talked about having to drill or cut a hole to remove the cordite to be able to have it with out a firearms certificate so I would suspect that's what was done perhaps by two different people in two different ways

Rich M

[Ron Clifton]

Deactivated rounds were often used for drill purposes, especially in training men to load belts for machine guns, or to practise loading rounds into rifle magazines.

Ron

[SiegeGunner]

Could we have a look at the headstamps.

[MikB]

Thanks gents very helpful. Appreciate the link to the thread Andrew, Tony at his best (as always). gew98 I had a look for the cardboard wad, and found it. Along with a small spanner, so to speak. Let me explain. In the photo the bottom case is just that, no bullet, nothing inside and no primer. The top one on the other hand turned out to be the complete opposite and I mean complete! I find myself scratching my head again. Any thoughts? Would a re-load work or be safe with that hole? What would it do to a rifle if anything?

I once had a rebarelled SMLE where the chamber reamer had been driven too deep, with the result that the shoulder blew forward more than 1/16" with new cases, and the diameter was oversize just in front of the casehead. This was OK with new ammunition, but with reloaded cases I got frequent head separations, where the web had stretched to breaking point just where the 'floor' of the powder space curved into the wall. These were alarming, but never seemed dangerous and did no visible damage to the rifle. However, they comprehensively spoilt rapid shoots because the case body was left in the chamber, leading to fiddly job with a Swiss knife before I could feed the next round . Obviously I stopped reloading for it, except with new cases or once-fired from a tight-chambered rifle.

So you certainly wouldn't risk using a round modified in this way in battle unless you had absolutely nothing else, because the location of the filecut and hole makes separation a real possibility.

Quite apart from that, the business of feeding powder granules - even assuming such propellant was available at the front in WW1 (which seems vanishingly unlikely) - would be so difficult as to require a great deal of time per round. I can't imagine such a task would come anywhere near practicability. Especially since the solvent used to remove the cordite would be effectively impossible to clean out properly.

I think the idea that these were reloads doesn't stand examination.

The first thing I wondered on seeing the pics was whether someone had threaded a piece of wire through the holes in 2 cases, and then knotted or cobbled the end to stop it coming back through, and then used the resulting double-handled wire to cut cheese (- or throats? >:-o), but the location of the holes doesn't seem sensible even for that.

Regards,

MikB

Quite apart from that,

[calibre792x57.y]

I think we may be heading in the wrong direction here. I don't think these were intended to be fired nor used as drill rounds. How about that they were once part of a work of trench art, now disassembled. One often sees a fence of 0.303in or 7.9mm cartridges around a 37 mm round or a 18 pdr case, or a fuze etc, the cuts being intended to secure them in position? - SW

[Beerhunter]

I recently got some second war dated 303 and was speaking to a collector he talked about having to drill or cut a hole to remove the cordite to be able to have it with out a firearms certificate

I've heard some rubbish in my time but on this occasion, words fail. Not only is getting any heat near the propellant highly dangerous but the cordite load is a bundle of sticks (that is to say it is NOT powder) best removed by the regular method of pulling the bullet.

Edited 14 November , 2014 by Beerhunter

[MikB]

I've heard some rubbish in my time but on this occasion, words fail. Not only is getting any heat near the propellant highly dangerous but the cordite load is a bundle of sticks (that is to say it is NOT powder) best removed by the regular method of pulling the bullet.

I'd agree with the second part of that, but I'd say that a few strokes with a three-cornered file followed by a small hand-drilling would be extremely unlikely to generate a dangerous amount of heat close to the cordite sticks...

Regards,

MikB

[Beerhunter]

I'd agree with the second part of that, but I'd say that a few strokes with a three-cornered file followed by a small hand-drilling would be extremely unlikely to generate a dangerous amount of heat close to the cordite sticks...

Regards,

MikB

Anyone who subjects propellent (remember it is propellant NOT HE) to any kind of over heat, caused for example by the friction of a cutting tool needs their head examined. I could say, especially when there is more effective method, but I'll stick to it being stand-alone madness in its own right.

BTWE, I should come clean and say that I have heard of ball, flake and chopped trube powders being removed this way but it really makes no sense at all for Cordite.

Edited 14 November , 2014 by Beerhunter

[steve10]

Thanks to all of you for your input. I think I should just make sure everyone is clear about my previous post. As I think it may have been a little to cryptic. Being new to this and despite Beerhunter's patient efforts on another thread, I am still a little nervous about what I should or shouldn't say. When I said complete I was trying to say that it still contained its cordite load. (Sorry if I have caused confusion). I appreciate this may change some of your thoughts.

Siege Gunner here are the head stamps, per your request sir.

[Beerhunter]

They were Cordited loaded Mk.Vi rounds made at Woolwich (RL).

The one on the left still has its primer and the one on the right does not.

Edited 14 November , 2014 by Beerhunter

[steve10]

Thanks Beerhunter. The one on the left had the bullet and contained the cordite.

[MikB]

Anyone who subjects propellent (remember it is propellant NOT HE) to any kind of over heat, caused for example by the friction of a cutting tool needs their head examined. I could say, especially when there is more effective method, but I'll stick to it being stand-alone madness in its own right.

BTWE, I should come clean and say that I have heard of ball, flake and chopped trube powders being removed this way but it really makes no sense at all for Cordite.

There's no need to be insulting. Work of the sort needed to make those holes would generate very little heat indeed - you'd need quite elaborate laboratory equipment to detect a temperature rise in the surrounding brass.

Though I agree that the only way cordite could be removed through such holes would be by use of a considerable quantity of an extremely aggressive solvent probably not obtainable at the front, and to no imaginable practical purpose.

[Beerhunter]

There's no need to be insulting. .

Forgive me but who did I insult?

[MikB]

Forgive me but who did I insult?

Anybody who ever filed, drilled or cut open a round with propellant in it - which I've done a few times and apparently WW1 soldiers sometimes did too.

You must have used some awfully blunt or overpowered tools if you think there's risk of igniting the propellant by heat in doing so. Clearly primers themselves, and possibly black powder charges are to be avoided, but common sense works well enough as a safety measure, particularly if a couple of filestrokes and a tiny drill are all that's involved.

I have to admit that the 'why' of doing this to a live round in this particular context is still a mystery, but in itself it's not obviously dangerous.

Regards,

MikB

[steve10]

Hi Beerhunter and MikB not wishing to add fuel to the fire, but what do you think would be the consequences of igniting the cordite by drilling. Obviously hypothetically, I'm not taking sides. But if you would be good enough to humour me I'd appreciate it. Supposing the round was clamped in a vice and it was a very very blunt bit. Could it blow out the bullet and the primer? Or would the case split/distort?

[MikB]

Hi Beerhunter and MikB not wishing to add fuel to the fire, but what do you think would be the consequences of igniting the cordite by drilling. Obviously hypothetically, I'm not taking sides. But if you would be good enough to humour me I'd appreciate it. Supposing the round was clamped in a vice and it was a very very blunt bit. Could it blow out the bullet and the primer? Or would the case split/distort?

I'd expect both. The case would most likely rupture before the pressure reached anywhere near standard in-chamber levels, but the neck would expand to crack the varnish seal and expel the bullet with force that would certainly be dangerous if the person doing it happened to be in the way, but only at a small fraction of normal muzzle velocity. Flash venting back through the primer pocket holes would likely ignite that too and pop it out with some force. The hot gas would also almost certainly hurt the person.

Cordite, like other nitro propellants, burns with a speed proportional to pressure and temperature. Since the pressure wouldn't be as strictly contained to high levels as in a rifle chamber, full burning speed would never be reached.

But I've never heard of anything like that happening. Rounds I've heard about exploding outside chambers have always done so as a result of being enveloped in a fire, therefore violently heated all over, and the propellant in all probability being touched off by detonation of the primer. There are, of course examples of cordite in magazines, especially in warships, conflagrating in bulk - but these were usually fired by flash from exploding hostile ordnance or chemical degradation - sometime aggravated by longterm application of heat - destabilising the propellant itself. We're a very long way from that in this instance.

Regards,

MikB

[steve10]

Many thanks for the detailed answer sir. That has shot a sizable hole in my theory. The neck of the case missing its primer is slightly flared and angled to one side a bit. Apart from that its dimensions are identical to the other. So not really what you have described. I was thinking if someone had been trying to make these rounds inert, and had started out drilling the holes. Used a small bit on the first but was a little braver on the second. It then went spectacularly wrong, so he left the rest alone including the first one. This would have answered alot of my questions. Oh well back to the drawing board.

I really appreciate every ones help on this. Anymore suggestions gratefully received.

Thank you

Steve

[Beerhunter]

First off all of my posts on these forums about propellents and explosives are intended to keep people alive and un-maimed by suggesting actions that I would not personally take, especially with potentially unstable stuff that it around a hundred years old. I am not trying to take a poke at anyone.

The problem with propellants is that they easily ignite, as do all Low Explosives, which is why I, like all explosives trained people, treat them more carefully than High Explosives.

Low Explosives need to be confined in order to get them to actually explode. If one were to light some unconfined low explosive it will burn quite fiercely but will not explode. Ignite a confined low explosive and one will get an explosion.

Probably the worst military disaster involving Cordite in recent times was the turret explosion on the USS Iowa in 1989. How it was ignited is still the subject of debate, including age related degradation of the Cordite, but it is still a good example of what happens if one ignites confined low explosive.

Edited 15 November , 2014 by Beerhunter

[Michael Haselgrove]

I agree with Sommewalker. These cases are part of a piece of trench are. Although there is a vast array of different objects made into trench art, perhaps he is thinking about something similar to the piece in the attached photograph taken from The Collector and Researchers Guide to the Great War Vol II by Howard Williamson.

Regards,

Michael.

[steve10]

Hello Michael

Thank you for sharing the photo, as I couldn't picture how they could work as trench art. I can now see why this was suggested. Do you think it normal to leave the load in the rounds being used? Would you know how the various elements are connected?

[Michael Haselgrove]

Hi Steve10,

I am no expert on trench art. However, in my opinion your best course of action is to put a few drops of 3-in-one oil in the case you have with an unfired primer and leave it to stand. That should inert it if it is not already inert.

I doubt very much that many trench art objects were made with live ammunition but, of course, you can never be too careful. One of our Forum members, redbarchetta, is an expert and I suggest you visit his website here http://www.trenchart.co.uk/ or contact him direct learn more about the subject.

Regards,

Michael.