Wanted - Deactivated WWI SMLE rifle

[withcall]

Hello folks - for years and years I have yearned for a WW1 SMLE, but have never managed to find one at the right price. Can anyone recommend an honest dealer who is not about to rip me off? Testimonials from people who have bought one, and been happy with the deal, would be gratefully received. I have looked at many internet sites, but I am wary of clicking away £500 for something that is not what it is claimed to be. Happy to read a personal message if you need to tell me anyone to avoid.

Best wishes - Withcall

[MikeyH]

World Wide Arms have stocks of S.M.L.E's at £375.00 without cut off, or £445.00 with cut off. These are all WW1 dated. Check out the on line catalogue. Carriage is £12.00.

My excellent example purchased around 18 months ago from them, is dated 1916 made at Enfield and carries a butt disc for the 2nd Battalion Lincolnshire Regiment. They (WWA) should have a stand at the Arms Fair at the National Motorcycle Museum Birmingham on Sunday 16th November if you would prefer to see before you buy.

Mike.

[manxsapper1915]

I've been buying from WWA for years, and they are well priced considering some smles I've seen being offered.

They do lay away plan too.

Baz

[peregrinvs]

Depends what you mean by a 'WWI SMLE'. A lot of the 'WWI dated' deactivated SMLE's on the UK market were assembled relatively recently from spare parts around a WWI dated receiver. Having seen their wares at shows like War & Peace, Military Odyssey and Stoneleigh, I'd be unsurprised if that was the origin of the WWA SMLE's.

A literally unmodified since WWI SMLE would be a very rare thing indeed, although relatively nice examples (i.e. not recent assemblages) can be had if you do your homework. Possibly best to post a link here for an appraisal if you see one online you like the look of.

[MikeyH]

peregrinvs,

Yes, point taken care is needed in choosing a good one . My WWA sourced Mark 111* (see #2) is a 'matching numbers' example, with the exception of the bolt. To find one which has all it's original components is most unusual.

Mike.

[T8HANTS]

Another way to look at it would be, that it is a crying shame to de-act i.e. wreck an all matching sleeper, that has remained in good nick all these years.

Such examples should remain within shooting circles where they can be enjoyed to their full extent.

The other side of the coin is that de-acting has saved thousands of poor examples (from a shooting point of view), and prevented the scrapping of tons of components.

One of the saddest sights I saw was a near mint Fulton regulated target SMLE that had been de-acted, and was out on the re-enacting circuit.

My own example is as it happens all matching, but that’s what you get years ago, fitted with unissued Union of South Africa woodwork, and it is the woodwork that draws the eye, not the numbers!

Gareth

[bu6512]

World Wide Arms have stocks of S.M.L.E's at £375.00 without cut off, or £445.00 with cut off. These are all WW1 dated. Check out the on line catalogue. Carriage is £12.00.

My excellent example purchased around 18 months ago from them, is dated 1916 made at Enfield and carries a butt disc for the 2nd Battalion Lincolnshire Regiment. They (WWA) should have a stand at the Arms Fair at the National Motorcycle Museum Birmingham on Sunday 16th November if you would prefer to see before you buy.

Mike.

I can also fully recommend wwa. I wanted an early war dated rife with mag cut off so I gave them a call. I found out most of their rifles with mag cut off are 1917-1918 dated Royal Navy issue but they had a look for me and supplied a BSA 1915 dated example with round cocking piece for no extra charge. It's in almost mint condition and looks unissued. I do agree with the other posts and I expect its been made up from bits of other rifles but without deactivated rifles I wonder how many would survive as clubs and gun owners would only be able to keep a limited number.

The only downside with WWA is if you order online/phone you don't get to see what your buying so if you can get to a fair I would recommend it!

[Richard Matlock]

WWA are good I have used terry Abrams who is slow but good and his stuff is well priced, I would recommend the meeting at the motorbike museum as already mentioned, but take your wallet as you will see so much you want , I also agree with the live fireing debate being a full bore shooter myself but sadly a de act is worth more so I can see why dealer do it.

Have fun looking

Rich M

[EastSurrey]

In the light of the above, I sent for an SMLE from WWA. It's a matching numbers one, as far as I can see, except for the bolt and dated 1916. It was made by B.S.A.. and the serial no. is H20809.There are also additional letters stamped on that look like AV and SC. Can any of you experts tell me more about it,please?

Michael

[Beerhunter]

It was made by B.S.A.. and the serial no. is H20809.There are also additional letters stamped on that look like AV and SC. Can any of you experts tell me more about it,please?

Not without some pictures. I guess, from the date, that it is a Mk.IIi*.

BTW, as it is a deac it doesn't matter so much but for a live rifle, a matching bolt IS important.

[4thGordons]

The additional stamps you refer to will be HV SC and be stamped on the barrel just aft of the rear sight - these stand for High Velocity (ie sighted for the MkVII ball ammunition) Small Cone (short lead between chamber and rifling again best suited to the MkVII ammunition) totally standard marking on a Sht LE of this vintage.

An H prefix on a 1916 BSA rifle would not be what I would expect - the Enfield Research Associates observed data (compiled some time ago) indicates that H was used as a prefix by BSA in late 1917 and early 1918 - the observed prefixes for 1916 are reported as Z, none, A and B.

So are you sure it is 1916 and not 1918? (6 and 8 on a worn stamp can often be difficult to determine)

Pictures would be good!

You could also prise the rear handguard off carefully (its held on with spring clips) and look at the stamping on the barrel knox form (which might also include a barrel date to help with the above if it is the original)

Chris

[EastSurrey]

Thanks, Chris and Beerhunter. I've had problems loading more than two photos. I'll try and send you both a message, as I'd appreciate your further comments. Furthermore, how do I best care for the gun,please?

Michael

[trenchtrotter]

You won't need to do much re care. Dust it, use polish on woodwork if you wish but not doing so won't harm, lightly oil moving parts every now and then and store in a dry environment. Don't leave it cocked. That's about it.

TT

[Beerhunter]

Do not use polish on the woodwork. They were originally treated with (raw) Linseed oil. At school we were issued it to top up the finish from time to time but nowadays I use Boiled Linseed oil which is less messy to use. The metalwork should be lightly oiled. Most people use something like Express Gun Oil, which may be obtained from any gun dealer or a country store like SCATTS

[trenchtrotter]

Well I have used furniture Polish on mine every now and again with beeswax and no issues so I will stick with it as the wood is fine.

TT

As its a deac I think there is no need for a gun oil also.

TT

[Beerhunter]

Well I have used furniture Polish on mine every now and again with beeswax and no issues so I will stick with it as the wood is fine.

TT

As its a deac I think there is no need for a gun oil also.

TT

Please yourself. I'm just pointing out what should be used. It's your gun, you can do what you like to it.

[trenchtrotter]

All noted and of course your right re a working gun exposed to rugged service life but I assume it is a deac bought for display / curio etc and therefor if correctly looked after indoors the wood won't dry / rot etc. a light polish with a wood furniture polish with bees ax suffices& won't discolour or change the tone / patina etc and is a lot more easy to do.

As its not firing won't get the crud / carbon fouling etc so re enemy is dust so light application of oil as oil is a dust magnet.

TT

[Timbob1001]

Hi all - could you someone explain the difference between old and new deactivation with reference to SMLEs.

I am doing lots of talks of late to Scouts, schools etc using a hired deactivated SMLE, but am starting to think a direct purchase would be far cheaper int he future! Can deactivated rifles chamber a round and make it possible to demonstrate the full working action of the bolt etc?

Cheers

Tim

[Beerhunter]

IIRC, none of the specifications allow a round to be chambered. They all call for a hardened steel pin to be welded across the chamber.

If I was you I'd look for a No.4 "Skeleton". Many of them were built from the ground up as demonstration guns and so have never been firearms and so are "off ticket". A couple of hundred should get you one.

[Stoppage Drill]

"Old" and "New" deactivations refer to the change in Home Office guidance in - I think - 1995. It doesn't affect single action weapons really.

The new rules required a much greater level of mutilation for automatic and semi-automatic weaponry. "New" de-acs have bolts/breech blocks welded shut amongst other things, so that the action cannot be cycled. However the rules were not retrospective, so if you have an auto or semi which was deactivated prior to the rule change you may keep it. As a result, old de-acs command a higher price.

Bear in mind that a de-ac, whilst not legally a "firearm" within the legal definition of the term is still an "imitation firearm" to which other measures apply. Possibly the most relevant is that possession in a public place without a reasonable excuse is an offence. The burden of proof lies upon the accused too.

However, de-acs were specifically excluded from the "realistic imitation firearm legislation which was introduced by the 2006 Violent Crime Reduction Act.

[18th Battalion]

I bought my de-ac SMLE in 80's and it can chamber and eject a round.

I don't know if there was a specified way to de-activate a bolt action rifle back then, but my one has a slot cut through the underside of the receiver from the feed ramp into chamber, the firing pin has been cut off and the bolt head welded to block the firing pin hole, and lastly, the inner (left) locking lug has been ground off. The barrel has no obstructions and is actually in decent condition considering it's 96 years old, with no sign of pitting or corrosion.

[Beerhunter]

There are actually three sets of official guidance on the deactivation of Firearms: 1989, 1995 and 2010. To benefit from the exemption in the 1997 Act a deact MUST be deactivated to the then current standard and be examined and marked as such by one of the two Proof Houses. This is a Statuary requirement in order to benefit from the Act. Other deacts may be legal but one has to prove it - possibly in court.

So a deact bought before 1989 may well be legal, that is to say it is no longer considered to be a firearm, but it can't benefit from the Act.

I have only one deact in my collection, a Lanchester SMG that was deacted in 1989 and marked by the Birmingham Proof House. It has the hardened steel pin that I mentioned.

[yperman]

I am definitely not an expert on guns but I have a few Great War deacts (SMLE etc) . I have a hazy notion that (in Sussex at least) either the latest law or local police require you to have your deact certificate with you if you take a deact into a public place.

I live about 2-300 yards from the sea front and display my deacts on a wall in our spare room- they do not get a direct sea breeze on them but I dare say the air is probably a little saltier than inland. Can anyone recommend whether I should or should not use a light coating of oil? Friends' opinions around here seem divided. For what it is worth I have not seen any signs of rust in the several years I have had them.

Yperman.

[Beerhunter]

I was a Cadet Armourer at school and our small arms were always left with alight coat of oil (OX52 back then), as were TA weapons later in life. I do the same to my collection of live small arms especially as the Section 7(3)s are kept at a "designated site". I do not know anyone who would suggest not doing this. Having said that the oil will tend to attract dirt and so it must periodically be cleaned off with a fresh coat.

There is no requirement under law to carry the Deact Certificate with one; especially as, under law, it is the Proof House mark that counts, not the Certificate. However you would need a lawful excuse to be in possession of a deact in a Public Place at all.

[MikB]

I live about 2-300 yards from the sea front and display my deacts on a wall in our spare room- they do not get a direct sea breeze on them but I dare say the air is probably a little saltier than inland. Can anyone recommend whether I should or should not use a light coating of oil? Friends' opinions around here seem divided. For what it is worth I have not seen any signs of rust in the several years I have had them.

Yperman.

I once lived in Saltdean, and it lived up to its name. Electrical equipment outside the house - like external light fittings - rusted almost while you watched! Car bodies didn't last well, either.

But nothing inside the house seemed to suffer especially. Normal occasional wiping with an oily rag should be quite enough.

Regards,

MikB