5th Scottish Rifles - November 1914

[Cameronian Volunteer]

I am trying to identify the soldiers recorded on the roll of the 5th Scottish Rifles when they arrived in France on 5th November 1914. This is published in the battalion history. I am becoming increasingly aware of discrepancies between the information on this roll and that contained in the medal rolls and the medal cards.

As a relative newcomer to this kind of research I would be grateful for advice from those who are more familiar with these documents.

Should I work on the assumption that, unless there is compelling evidence to the contrary, the medal rolls and cards are accurate and that any discrepancies are due to errors in the published roll?

The National Archives records some documents which are held by the Mitchell Library (NRA 16655 Baillie's L) and the National Records of Scotland (GD1/332). They are for 26th Foot/5th Cameronians, dated 1890-1938.

Is anyone (perhaps Barrie Duncan?) familiar with these documents? I presume I would have to access them in person. Is this easy to do, and would they be worth a trip to Scotland from London? Do they contain much in the way of rolls which would help to identify individuals and record their history? I note that the documents in the Mitchell Library mention "members and recruits lists, photographs".

I apologise for the number of questions. I seem to be in a "The more I learn the less I seem to know" situation!

Any advice would be gratefully received.

[WilliamRev]

Hi CV,

You ask two questions: the second is about the records in the Mitchell Library, and that is indeed very specific - I have no answer myself, but, like you, I would be interested to hear from anyone who does.

As for your first: I too have the published history of the 5th Scottish Rifles (my grandfather being a private/rifleman in that battalion, posted to France 15th March 1915, leaving them in Nov. 1915 to train as an officer in the Royal Scots Fusiliers), and see that the lists of men who went out 5th Nov 1914 (appendices 3&4) are quite detailed and specific - indeed they look very authoritative, but I can't see that the authors tell us from whence this list derives.

What kind of discrepancies have you found between the list and the medal rolls cards? I'm not doubting that you have - I'm just keen to know what they are.

William

[Cameronian Volunteer]

In my innocence, as I had discovered that my uncle had gone to France with 5th Scottish Rifles in November 1914, and as I had found the battalion history online, I thought it might be a worthwhile task to link the names on the roll with the information on the IWM "Lives" project.

I have managed to match most of them (750+) but some were elusive, and so I began to reconstruct a roll using their service numbers and tried to see whether I could find any linked to the numbers in the gaps. (Ancestry's search engine isn't very good with the variations of "Scottish Rifles").

I found a few this way, but then began to notice some who had Medal Cards with the qualifying date as 5/11/14 but who were not on the published roll. At the moment I have found 12. A notable example was #7097 Private A Warwick - Rifleman R Warwick in No 2 Company has #7098. The coincidence suggests they could be related.

I have also found some with different dates of disembarkation. A few on 4/11/14 were probably an advance party, but some are much later. The only H C Graham (No 5 Company) I can find is #6712 H C Graham who arrived on 1/9/15 and was awarded 14/15 Star. This could be a different individual but I'm beginning to doubt it. #6659 Rifleman G Denny has 25/11/14 as qualifying date on his Medal Card, but 5/11/14 as disembarkation date on the medal roll.

#5757 Sergeant M G Kerr has 24/1/15 on the only medal card I can find, which matches the date on the medal roll for the 14/15 Star. However, he also an entry on the roll for the 1914 Star which records the date of disembarkation as 5/11/14 which matches the published roll. There also are two different dates for Rifleman D M Leslie (No 7 Company), who I think is #6861 William McDonald Leslie: one medal roll records 5/11/14, but another records 1/2/15.

Once I have checked through the online medal rolls and the scans of these which have just become available on Ancestry I will make a proper list of names and discrepancies.

I think what surprised me most was the number of individuals who appear to have gone with the battalion on 5/11/14, but somehow were not included on the published roll.

Any suggestions you can make about how best to approach the discrepancies will be gratefully received.

I'm tempted to assume that if the medal roll or card records that they arrived with the battalion on 5th November then they did, and they have just been missed off the roll in error. I am also thinking that if any medal card or entry on the roll matches the battalion roll then I regard this as confirmation of the accuracy of the published roll, even if there are other entries with a later date.

I guess the only way to confirm the accuracy of their names is from the birth registration, but I think that is a step to far for me.

Thanks again for any light you can shed on any of the above.

[Tom Lang]

I don't know if this will help, but The Regimental Roll of Honour of the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) is digital and online.

https://archive.org/stream/regimentalrollof1920grea#page/n0/mode/2up

Kindest Regards,

Tom.

[WilliamRev]

Hi CV

I admire your thoroughness; perhaps you are the best person to try and unpick the details of exactly which soldiers of the 5th Scottish Rifles went to France and when.

You probably know about this book, but if not, Lord Reith's WW1 memoir "Wearing Spurs" has plenty of details of the early months of the 5th Scottish Rifles in France. As Lt. J. Reith, he was Transport Officer in the first few weeks.

[it is also a fascinating book because (in the genuine sense) John Reith had a psychopathic/sociopathic personality, and we get insights into his various grudges and obsessions - it was his scary force of personality that was to contribute to the BBC being a unique institution, in my opinion].

William

[Cameronian Volunteer]

Thanks William and Tom for the references, both new to me, although I knew about Lord Reith's role in the battalion. "Making waves" comes to mind.

Looks like I have more reading to do.

Eddie

[Icox67]

Hi.

For no other reason than to put faces to the names of 2 of the men from the 5th SR who both landed on 5th Nov 1914 (recorded in the Battalion History and on their MIC's)...Walter R. Prentice was just turned 17 by 5th Nov. David Eadie was 19. Both from Cambuslang.

Walter was wounded on 26 Jan 1915, and later returned to the front, but with 2nd Bn. David became a 2nd Lt, and was killed on 10 May 1918.

Regards,

Iain

[Loader]

Hi CV

I admire your thoroughness; perhaps you are the best person to try and unpick the details of exactly which soldiers of the 5th Scottish Rifles went to France and when.

You probably know about this book, but if not, Lord Reith's WW1 memoir "Wearing Spurs" has plenty of details of the early months of the 5th Scottish Rifles in France. As Lt. J. Reith, he was Transport Officer in the first few weeks.

[it is also a fascinating book because (in the genuine sense) John Reith had a psychopathic/sociopathic personality, and we get insights into his various grudges and obsessions - it was his scary force of personality that was to contribute to the BBC being a unique institution, in my opinion].

William

Reith's account of meeting his former CO on the street & snubbing him in public was a surprise to me when I first read it. He certainly did have his opinions & never failed to express them! I knew nothng about him at all when I read the book being n the US & not familiar with the BBC.

[Cameronian Volunteer]

Hi Iain

Many thanks for the pictures of two of the soldiers from 5th Scottish Rifles.

I would very much like to add them to their pages in my Community for the battalion on the "Lives" website. Would that be OK with you? If so, how would you like me to acknowledge the source of the pictures? I just wish I could add pictures for them all.

I knew that David had died, but did not know about Walter's injury. There is no reference to a casualty in the War Diary for 26th January 1915. I would be grateful for any details you have about his injury and subsequent return to the front, in order to add them to his page on "Lives".

Best wishes,

Eddie

[Cameronian Volunteer]

Hi Loader

I also found his account fascinating. A different world. If his account of his behaviour in the trenches is accurate, it's a minor miracle he survived to tell the tale. He certainly didn't get on with the adjutant.

Eddie

[Cameronian Volunteer]

Hi William

If you are still interested, this is just an update on where I am with trying to resolve the discrepancies between the published battalion roll for 5th Scottish Rifles and the medal rolls and MICs.

Excluding soldiers attached, there were 748 soldiers recorded on the published roll. Of these, 19 do not seem to have been awarded the 1914 Star. Some may have remained at home, but others disembarked in January 1915 or later. There are also 25 soldiers, not recorded in the published roll, who are recorded on the medal rolls and MICs as disembarking in November 1914.

If the medal rolls are correct then 754 other ranks landed in November with 5th Scottish Rifles. This almost matches the 755 other ranks recorded in the disembarkation records for Havre on 5th November 1914.

I suspect this discrepancy might be something to do with two soldiers with the same service number. One of these has a MIC but is not recorded on the medal rolls, although a soldier with the same name and very similar number is. I don't suppose I can be sure about this but I have assumed that this MIC has been duplicated in error. Then again I'm not sure how important, and accurate, the paperwork was when they were trying to get soldiers quickly to the front in 1914.

Many thanks for pointing me towards Reith's book. I found it fascinating.

[WilliamRev]

Eddie,

thanks for the update. I suppose that the medal rolls will show if any failed to be awarded the 1914 star because they were deserters - but I get the impression that the battalion was very motivated - all volunteers who were keen to be as good as the regulars, so perhaps they didn't have any deserters until later, unlike the regular battalions which had loads in late 1914 and early 1915.

I'm still not sure where that roll in the battalion history actually comes from - perhaps battalion paperwork which had survived in an archive. I wonder if it is more accurate than the medal rolls?

William

[Cameronian Volunteer]

William

I wish I knew more about the source of the battalion roll, and I certainly recognise that the medal rolls may not be as accurate as might be expected.

There are a number of soldiers where the medal roll has a specific comment to the effect that the award of the 14 Star was being "investigated", and followed by the comment "not eligible", with the entry being crossed out. No mention of desertion, but the date of disembarkation is given as later, in 1915.

Some of these soldiers appear to be part of the first draft of reinforcements in January 1915, and they might be those who just possibly were left behind on 4th November. The War Diary for 4th November records: "A Sgt of the Permanent Staff was left in charge of an area of absolute chaos." The diary doesn't make it clear whether anyone left behind travelled with the rest of the battalion or remained behind to rejoin at a later date. I don't suppose we'll ever know.

I am working on the assumption that there were a sufficient number of survivors of the initial deployment, including the authors of the battalion history, to have supported the claim for the award of the 1914 Star if this had been wrongly refused. However, I have no idea what procedures might have been involved in the "investigation" and the decision that a soldier was not eligible for a particular award.

It would be great if an original roll had survived, but in the absence of any such evidence, I suspect that what we have may be open to different interpretations.

In your researches for the book on your grandfather, have you come across any rolls, or other information which might shed any light on who served with the battalion, and when they served?

Eddie

[WilliamRev]

William

[snip]

In your researches for the book on your grandfather, have you come across any rolls, or other information which might shed any light on who served with the battalion, and when they served?

Eddie

Eddie,

In fact my book on my grandfather has turned into a more general book about the 1st Royal Scots Fusiliers during the war. But I am still keen to establish a narrative on my grandfather's service in 1915 that I can leave to family members. I have found fascinating details on 5th Scottish Rifles (and the 19th Brigade) in The War the Infantry Knew, Wearing Spurs, and Goodbye to All That, and will investigate the 19th Brigade war diary at the National Archives in due course.

William

[Cameronian Volunteer]

Hi William

Eddie,

and will investigate the 19th Brigade war diary at the National Archives in due course.

William

Not quite a coincidence, but I was actually looking at the 19th Brigade HQ Diary at Kew last Thursday. I was hoping to find some references to the strength and/or casualties for 5th Scottish Rifles. I got sidetracked by the details of some trench maps and raids and ran out of time. However I have downloaded the first section from "Discovery" and should be working through it in a more systematic way. I will watch out for any references to your grandfather.

Best wishes,

Eddie

[Icox67]

Hi Iain

Many thanks for the pictures of two of the soldiers from 5th Scottish Rifles.

I would very much like to add them to their pages in my Community for the battalion on the "Lives" website. Would that be OK with you? If so, how would you like me to acknowledge the source of the pictures? I just wish I could add pictures for them all.

I knew that David had died, but did not know about Walter's injury. There is no reference to a casualty in the War Diary for 26th January 1915. I would be grateful for any details you have about his injury and subsequent return to the front, in order to add them to his page on "Lives".

Best wishes,

Eddie

Hi Eddie,

Happy to send you more details, as I collected a fair bit on both soldiers (and others in my family, not in the 5th SR). If you'd PM me your email, I can send you the file, if that's any good.

Cheers, Iain

[high wood]

I carried out a similar exercise with the original members of the 9th battalion East Surrey Regiment using their original embarkation date of 31/8/1915. I was surprised to see the discrepancy between the numbers shown in the battalion War Diary, (904, if I remember correctly) and those on the 1914/15 Star roll. It wasn't until I looked at the casualty rolls for the East Surrey's for the battle of Loos that I found many of the missing names amongst the wounded. In most cases, if they had not been discharged, they returned to the front with other units such as the A.S.C., Labour Corps, etc. and their 1914/15 Stars had been issued by the secondary unit and obviously appeared on their rolls.

I would suggest that you get a disembarkation figure from the War Diary and aim for that figure. There will be some discrepancies in the date which leaving aside a few men who went as advance parties, will be down to clerical errors. This will usually be a day either side of the official disembarkation date. The War Diary will record when drafts of reinforcements arrived with the battalion and these men will have a disembarkation date of a few days earlier, depending on how long it would have taken the new men to arrive at the battalion's positions.

I have always thought it a pity that medal index cards for 1914 and 1914/15 Stars cannot be searched by disembarkation date. Having said that, I believe that the War Diary of either the 8th or the 9th East Lancashire Regiment lists every soldier of the original disembarkation by name and service number.

Good luck with your project.

[high wood]

I have just looked through the Scottish Rifles section of my archive and I have details of two brothers who were original members of the 1/5th battalion who disembarked at Le Havre on the 5th November 1915.

They were: 6237 William Hamilton, who died of wounds as a PoW on the 7th August 1916 and his brother 6358 John P Hamilton, who transferred to the Army Ordnance Corps.

[Cameronian Volunteer]

Thanks for the comments, High Wood

I would suggest that you get a disembarkation figure from the War Diary and aim for that figure. There will be some discrepancies in the date which leaving aside a few men who went as advance parties, will be down to clerical errors. This will usually be a day either side of the official disembarkation date. The War Diary will record when drafts of reinforcements arrived with the battalion and these men will have a disembarkation date of a few days earlier, depending on how long it would have taken the new men to arrive at the battalion's positions.

I have always thought it a pity that medal index cards for 1914 and 1914/15 Stars cannot be searched by disembarkation date.

Sadly the War Diary for the 5th Scottish Rifles is, at least initially, very short of information on strength. Apart from some references to casualties, the first reference to the battalion strength is on 16th March 1915, when 122 ORs (referred to as a second draft ! ) arrived, and 1st April 1915, when 97 ORs arrived. On 1st April strength is given as 29 officers and 926 other ranks.

Medal Rolls and MICs show a large draft arriving in France on 22/1/1915, and further drafts on 10/3/1915 and 27/3/1915. As the numbers don't readily match the figures in the war diary, I wonder if there might have been delays in sending some to join those in the front line.

However, this doesn't really help with the problem of deciding who went in November 1914.

The published roll in the battalion history gives 748 other ranks, the Territorial Force Roll for 1/12/1914 (from NA) gives 747 other ranks, the Medal Rolls give 754 other ranks, and the disembarkation figures from Naval Transport at Havre for 5th November 1914 (from NA) give 755 other ranks.

I attempted to reconstruct the battalion roll initially searching the MICs on Ancestry and using information from the N&M website. The more recent publication of the medal rolls on Ancestry has allowed me to transcribe them for 5th Scottish Rifles. I think I have a fairly complete list, with service numbers, of those who went in 1914 and 1915 and I can use this information for the Community on the IWM Lives website, which was what started me off on this research. Little did I know!

I have got the two Hamiltons on my list, but I didn't realise that they were brothers, or that William was a POW. Thanks for that.

I have seen references to the casualty rolls. I would be very interested in any advice on the best ways to tackle researching them.

Thanks again,

Eddie

[high wood]

Eddie,

the 1/5th battalion Cameronians seem to have taken their first casualties in December 1914 but you would need to find out the date of their first major action. The casualty lists would have been published in the Times and should show both killed and wounded.

Simon.

[Guest]

Thanks for the comments, High Wood

Sadly the War Diary for the 5th Scottish Rifles is, at least initially, very short of information on strength. Apart from some references to casualties, the first reference to the battalion strength is on 16th March 1915, when 122 ORs (referred to as a second draft ! ) arrived, and 1st April 1915, when 97 ORs arrived. On 1st April strength is given as 29 officers and 926 other ranks.

Medal Rolls and MICs show a large draft arriving in France on 22/1/1915, and further drafts on 10/3/1915 and 27/3/1915. As the numbers don't readily match the figures in the war diary, I wonder if there might have been delays in sending some to join those in the front line.

However, this doesn't really help with the problem of deciding who went in November 1914.

The published roll in the battalion history gives 748 other ranks, the Territorial Force Roll for 1/12/1914 (from NA) gives 747 other ranks, the Medal Rolls give 754 other ranks, and the disembarkation figures from Naval Transport at Havre for 5th November 1914 (from NA) give 755 other ranks.

I attempted to reconstruct the battalion roll initially searching the MICs on Ancestry and using information from the N&M website. The more recent publication of the medal rolls on Ancestry has allowed me to transcribe them for 5th Scottish Rifles. I think I have a fairly complete list, with service numbers, of those who went in 1914 and 1915 and I can use this information for the Community on the IWM Lives website, which was what started me off on this research. Little did I know!

I have got the two Hamiltons on my list, but I didn't realise that they were brothers, or that William was a POW. Thanks for that.

I have seen references to the casualty rolls. I would be very interested in any advice on the best ways to tackle researching them.

Thanks again,

Eddie

I have done this exercise with a few battalions for 1914 and 1914-15 Star data and used a similar approach cross-referencing with other sources. You may already be aware of what follows, but in the remote chance that some parts are of use here is my experience in this kind of exercise;

One of the biggest swing factors between Reinforcement drafts sent out and drafts arriving at the battalion is that the Reinforcement drafts went to the Infantry Base Depot first. They would be based there until called up and while there, be plundered for fatigues etc. Often the numbers differed by a small amount in Aug-Sep for the Regulars 1st, 2nd 3rd and 4th Reinforcement drafts. Thereafter it generally became fairly chaotic with larger mis-matches in numbers. The rolls of men sent out to France and the rolls of men arriving at the battalions will differ in detail. There is one quite famous case of a who reinforcement draft for the Gordon Highlanders being sent to the A&SH for a few weeks and participating in action, then being returned to its parent battalion. There are also examples of drafts being diverted to other battalions (Black Watch in 1914 springs to mind).

One also needs to consider the numbers in subsequent drafts would be inflated with returning sick and wounded (sometimes the diaries record the numbers included and occasionally even the names). No set of records is alike and each has their own particular quirks.

It is also worth noting that the diarists often omitted detail and in many cases whole reinforcement drafts were missed from the records of the receiving battalion. Also tired Adjutants lost count and occasionally we see the numbering sequence go awry. Added to that occasionally the drafts got out of chronological synch with say for example 19th Inf Bde 2nd Reinforcement drafts arriving after the 3rd Reinforcement draft. All potential sources of confusion.

The Officers rolls give some indication of how long men could remain at the IBD. By comparing disembarkation dates with date of arrival at the battalion. In 1914 this varied from a single day to anything up to 4 weeks. Most drafts were escorted by Officers so one begins to get a feel for the speed which drafts moved through the system at various times. The Officers' rolls were extremely useful as a second check on the drafts as most diaries tended to record the arrival of Officers and drafts and we have the additional info that we can associate drafts with named Officers. Tracking the Officer helps track the draft in some cases.

There are a few battalions whose disembarkation rolls survive, or the lists of men recorded by the receiving battalion survive. There are battalions that recorded the names and numbers of all casualties (not just the fatalities) and there are Regiments that kept ledgers of men sent out. To date I have not found a perfect set i.e. a unit where the rolls of the men sent out, received by the IDB, sent out by the IBD and received by the battalion(s) have all survived. It is the Holy Grail.

Given all sources were complied by humans they will all have errors to varying degrees. It is sometimes difficult to know for sure which of the multiple conflicting source is correct. Modern transcriptions from websites usually add to the errors. I prefer to use the medal rolls as the basic raw material and build up from there. As the MICS were compiled from the rolls, intuitively they ought to be less reliable as there is another layer of transcription risk, however it has been pointed out that they contain additional info, so can not be ignored - for example the disembarkation roll dates sometimes differ from the medal roll dates and in some cases both are recorded. This sometimes helps solve small conflicts in the data. I have found conflicts from every source.

It is worth remembering that the Star medal rolls recorded the men who qualified within the date and location i.e. within the range of the enemy guns. Some who disembarked and stayed in the rear with the gear would not necessarily appear on the rolls. Some slip through only to be eliminated later - doubtless you have seen these.

Very occasionally one finds complete rolls in published histories, but these tend to be small units. One of the Yeomanry Regiments managed to record every man, but here we were dealing with less than 1,000 men.

Good luck with your quest. I would be fascinated to see what conclusions you eventually draw from the data. MG

PS. One small swing factor is that Officers servants followed their Officers and may mean that when an Officer was sent off to an extra-regimental employ, his servant followed. One occasionally sees diary entries recording X number of Officers and the servants arrive today. etc. MG

[Cameronian Volunteer]

Martin, many thanks for your detailed comments.

I have been following the posts about the BEF 1914-1915 with great interest.

One of the biggest swing factors between Reinforcement drafts sent out and drafts arriving at the battalion is that the Reinforcement drafts went to the Infantry Base Depot first.

It is also worth noting that the diarists often omitted detail and in many cases whole reinforcement drafts were missed from the records of the receiving battalion. Also tired Adjutants lost count and occasionally we see the numbering sequence go awry. Added to that occasionally the drafts got out of chronological synch with say for example 19th Inf Bde 2nd Reinforcement drafts arriving after the 3rd Reinforcement draft. All potential sources of confusion.

The Officers rolls give some indication of how long men could remain at the IBD. By comparing disembarkation dates with date of arrival at the battalion. In 1914 this varied from a single day to anything up to 4 weeks. Most drafts were escorted by Officers so one begins to get a feel for the speed which drafts moved through the system at various times. The Officers' rolls were extremely useful as a second check on the drafts as most diaries tended to record the arrival of Officers and drafts and we have the additional info that we can associate drafts with named Officers. Tracking the Officer helps track the draft in some cases.

Given all sources were complied by humans they will all have errors to varying degrees. It is sometimes difficult to know for sure which of the multiple conflicting source is correct. Modern transcriptions from websites usually add to the errors. I prefer to use the medal rolls as the basic raw material and build up from there. As the MICS were compiled from the rolls, intuitively they ought to be less reliable as there is another layer of transcription risk, however it has been pointed out that they contain additional info, so can not be ignored - for example the disembarkation roll dates sometimes differ from the medal roll dates and in some cases both are recorded. This sometimes helps solve small conflicts in the data. I have found conflicts from every source.

It is worth remembering that the Star medal rolls recorded the men who qualified within the date and location i.e. within the range of the enemy guns. Some who disembarked and stayed in the rear with the gear would not necessarily appear on the rolls. Some slip through only to be eliminated later - doubtless you have seen these.

As someone with very little understanding of military organisation, I would be grateful for some help in understanding the implications of your comments for my attempts to research the soldiers in the battalion.

5th Scottish Rifles seem to have been used during this early period as a support battalion, with only half of the battalion in the line at any one time, at Houplines and Bois Grenier. They had relatively few casualties. I had thought that their only base was with the half of the battalion which was out of the front line. Would they have gone to a 19th Brigade base on arrival in France, before they were forwarded to 5th Scottish Rifles? I have only just started looking through the 19th Brigade diaries.

I had understood that if they had disembarked in France in 1914 they would have been entitled to the 1914 Star. I have some individuals recorded in the roll for 5th November 1914 published in the battalion history, but for whom the disembarkation date is later, or no mention is made on the rolls or MICs. A number of these are recorded, but crossed out with a comment stating that they were not eligible. I thought that this meant that they had not actually gone with the battalion on 5th November. If I interpret "within the range of enemy guns" correctly, you are suggesting that there might be some individuals not on the 1914 Star rolls who actually were in France in November 1914, but behind the lines in a base camp. Could you confirm that this is a possibility, or have I misunderstood your comments?

As far as I can make out the first draft of reinforcements for early 1915 appear to have arrived accompanied by a couple of sergeants. The war diary does not mention any new officers arriving during this period. I seem to be dependent on the information on the medal rolls and the MICs to establish when individuals arrived in France.

I completely take your point about conflicting sources of information. I started with the information on Lives and the perils of searching Ancestry for the MICs. I was delighted to be pointed, by someone else on GWF, to the Naval and Military press transcriptions which made it much easier to be systematic, but now find I have to confirm some of the transcriptions on the Ancestry rolls. I note that you use the rolls as the basic raw material and build from there. I rather wish I had started there instead of with the published roll which does not include service numbers.

Many thanks again for your comments. I intend to collect what I can, and double check the information for the battalion, and hope I can summarise my observations at some point.

Eddie

[vinniemac]

Stumbled across this topic which directly relates to a great uncle of mine who served with and later lost a leg while serving with the 5 th Scottish Rifles.Pte.John McQueen Ser No,204437 (although another number of 91.seems to exist for him.

Would be interested to see when he went to France.Iknow he was discharged on the 26-9-1917 due to gun shot wound which led to amputation of his left leg.Any info with regards his wounding or where it may have taken place etc.would be gratefully relieved.

regards

vinniemac.

[Smithy26]

On 13/06/2021 at 20:06, vinniemac said:

Stumbled across this topic which directly relates to a great uncle of mine who served with and later lost a leg while serving with the 5 th Scottish Rifles.Pte.John McQueen Ser No,204437 (although another number of 91.seems to exist for him.

Would be interested to see when he went to France.Iknow he was discharged on the 26-9-1917 due to gun shot wound which led to amputation of his left leg.Any info with regards his wounding or where it may have taken place etc.would be gratefully relieved.

regards

vinniemac.

Hi,

the 5th Bttn started re-numbering from 1 in late 1915, having previously reached 9999.  The No.91 is likely an enlistment around Oct 1915 (Edit - just noticed his card states 21/10/15, so my Service No. research worked!).  He will probably have gone to France some time early to mid 1915. 

By 1917 the 5th was part of the 5th/6th Bttn, and before 26/09/17 they were in the Nieuport Sector (Western Front nearest the North Sea) for the whole of August and then Training most of September.  It's likely he was wounded near Nieuport if discharged 26/9/17.  Without Service Papers or some Pension related documents it is difficult to be more accurate than this.

 

Cheers,

Smithy

[vinniemac]

Hi Smithy

many thanks for that,got this but not quite sure how to read it.