5th Scottish Rifles - November 1914

[Smithy26]

Assume its the bit on the left side (Other Action) you are not sure about?  I think this is just admin related for his disability pension, they would audit every year to make sure those receiving pension are still eligible & alive!

 

Smithy

[vinniemac]

Yeah was a little unsure as to their meaning,I assume his disability ended in 1930,probably wrongly.

He went on to a full life married and had 3 children.Family oral history has him developing some improvement in the Davit system that vastly improved the operation of lifeboat lowering in emergencies.

Thanks again for your help.

[yorksburnett]

On 06/03/2015 at 20:21, Cameronian Volunteer said:

Martin, many thanks for your detailed comments.

I have been following the posts about the BEF 1914-1915 with great interest.

As someone with very little understanding of military organisation, I would be grateful for some help in understanding the implications of your comments for my attempts to research the soldiers in the battalion.

5th Scottish Rifles seem to have been used during this early period as a support battalion, with only half of the battalion in the line at any one time, at Houplines and Bois Grenier. They had relatively few casualties. I had thought that their only base was with the half of the battalion which was out of the front line. Would they have gone to a 19th Brigade base on arrival in France, before they were forwarded to 5th Scottish Rifles? I have only just started looking through the 19th Brigade diaries.

I had understood that if they had disembarked in France in 1914 they would have been entitled to the 1914 Star. I have some individuals recorded in the roll for 5th November 1914 published in the battalion history, but for whom the disembarkation date is later, or no mention is made on the rolls or MICs. A number of these are recorded, but crossed out with a comment stating that they were not eligible. I thought that this meant that they had not actually gone with the battalion on 5th November. If I interpret "within the range of enemy guns" correctly, you are suggesting that there might be some individuals not on the 1914 Star rolls who actually were in France in November 1914, but behind the lines in a base camp. Could you confirm that this is a possibility, or have I misunderstood your comments?

As far as I can make out the first draft of reinforcements for early 1915 appear to have arrived accompanied by a couple of sergeants. The war diary does not mention any new officers arriving during this period. I seem to be dependent on the information on the medal rolls and the MICs to establish when individuals arrived in France.

I completely take your point about conflicting sources of information. I started with the information on Lives and the perils of searching Ancestry for the MICs. I was delighted to be pointed, by someone else on GWF, to the Naval and Military press transcriptions which made it much easier to be systematic, but now find I have to confirm some of the transcriptions on the Ancestry rolls. I note that you use the rolls as the basic raw material and build from there. I rather wish I had started there instead of with the published roll which does not include service numbers.

Many thanks again for your comments. I intend to collect what I can, and double check the information for the battalion, and hope I can summarise my observations at some point.

Eddie

Hello Eddie

I found this thread while trawling the GWF for information about the 5th Bn Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) and hope that you are still actively researching this battalion.

I am researching two brothers who served with 5th Cameronians during WW1. Pte Edward A BYRNE, No.6707 was a pre-war territorial having joined in January 1914, when he was 16 1/2 yrs old. His MIC shows that he was awarded the 1914 Star, indicating that he saw action during that year. He was killed in action on 23 May 1916 age 19yrs.

Edward's older brother Joseph J BYRNE attested in early February 1915 as Acting/Lance Sgt. No.8588. When the 5th Bn & 6th Bn merged in May 1916 he became No.200999 of 5th/6th Bn. He died on 2 Mar 1918; his CWG certificate does not say that he was killed in action or that he died of wounds.

I have downloaded the 5th Bn Cameronians War Diary from the National Archive and am about to trace the battalion's movements and try to work out exactly when and where Lance Sgt Joseph BYRNE No.8588 would have joined his brother Pte. Edward BYRNE No.6707.  Can you save me some time? Any information you have that you think may be relevant to my research would be much appreciated.

Bill Burnett

 

 

[Michelle Young]

@Cameronian Volunteer hasn’t visited the forum  for 20 months. With any luck, my tag will alert them to your post. 

[yorksburnett]

Many thanks Michelle.

I too have not been active on the Forum for some time.

Bill

[PRC]

On 28/12/2023 at 16:48, yorksburnett said:

Edward's older brother Joseph J BYRNE attested in early February 1915 as Acting/Lance Sgt. No.8588. When the 5th Bn & 6th Bn merged in May 1916 he became No.200999 of 5th/6th Bn. He died on 2 Mar 1918; his CWG certificate does not say that he was killed in action or that he died of wounds.

As you're no doubt aware he only qualified for the Victory Medal and the British War Medal, (VM & BWM), so the very earliest he could have served overseas in a Theatre of War was the 1st January 1916. So if the worst comes to the worse checking the war diary to see if it mentions drafts from that date onwards may serve as a long stop.

I don't subscribe to Ancestry or FindMyPast and I don't know generically how inclusive the Scottish Rifles medal rolls - some regiments and most corps have just the bare minimum required in order for the medals to be issued. Could be worth a check, (images on Ancestry, transcripts on FMP) to see if they generally include all units served with overseas. If they do then might be worthwhile looking to see if service in the 5th Battalion is usually distinguished from service in the 5/6th Battalion for those who qualified for the VM & BWM combination only.

The merger did not lead to his renumbering - that was part of the Territorial Force wide renumbering that took place early in 1917 - see https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-infantry-in-1917/

Soldiers Died in the Great War records him as Killed In Action.

If you take a look at his Commonwealth War Graves Commission, (CWGC), webpage there is actually a Concentration Report attached. This shows he was one of a number of bodies either recovered from the battlefield or moved from isolated battlefield graves in November 1919, all of whom now rest at Buttes New British Cemetery, Polygon Wood, Belgium. The  CWGC webpage for that cemetery notes "This burial ground was made after the Armistice when a large number of graves (almost all of 1917, but in a few instances of 1914, 1916 and 1918) were brought in from the battlefields of Zonnebeke. There are now 2,108 Commonwealth servicemen of the First World War buried or commemorated in Buttes New British Cemetery. 1,677 of the burials are unidentified but special memorials are erected to 35 casualties known or believed to be buried among them".https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/55101/buttes-new-british-cemetery-polygon-wood/

The CWGC database shows a second man of the 5/6th Battalion as having died on the 2nd March 1918 - 240474 Private J. Liddell. There isn't a concentration report for him, but as the grave wasn't taken under management by the Imperial War Graves Commission, (the predecessor of the CWGC), until late 1920 and given the history of the cemetery it would seem likely that he was moved there. Soldiers Died in the Great War shows Private John Liddell as Killed in Action.

It doesn't look like the International Committee of the Red Cross received a missing person enquiry for either of them, so possibly their fate was known at or close to their time of death rather than them being recorded missing in action. John Liddell does turn up in official casualty lists in both July and November 1917, but couldn't readily spot him or Joseph Byrne in connection with their deaths.

Hope some of that helps,
Peter

[yorksburnett]

On 29/12/2023 at 23:03, PRC said:

As you're no doubt aware he only qualified for the Victory Medal and the British War Medal, (VM & BWM), so the very earliest he could have served overseas in a Theatre of War was the 1st January 1916. So if the worst comes to the worse checking the war diary to see if it mentions drafts from that date onwards may serve as a long stop.

I don't subscribe to Ancestry or FindMyPast and I don't know generically how inclusive the Scottish Rifles medal rolls - some regiments and most corps have just the bare minimum required in order for the medals to be issued. Could be worth a check, (images on Ancestry, transcripts on FMP) to see if they generally include all units served with overseas. If they do then might be worthwhile looking to see if service in the 5th Battalion is usually distinguished from service in the 5/6th Battalion for those who qualified for the VM & BWM combination only.

The merger did not lead to his renumbering - that was part of the Territorial Force wide renumbering that took place early in 1917 - see https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-infantry-in-1917/

Soldiers Died in the Great War records him as Killed In Action.

If you take a look at his Commonwealth War Graves Commission, (CWGC), webpage there is actually a Concentration Report attached. This shows he was one of a number of bodies either recovered from the battlefield or moved from isolated battlefield graves in November 1919, all of whom now rest at Buttes New British Cemetery, Polygon Wood, Belgium. The  CWGC webpage for that cemetery notes "This burial ground was made after the Armistice when a large number of graves (almost all of 1917, but in a few instances of 1914, 1916 and 1918) were brought in from the battlefields of Zonnebeke. There are now 2,108 Commonwealth servicemen of the First World War buried or commemorated in Buttes New British Cemetery. 1,677 of the burials are unidentified but special memorials are erected to 35 casualties known or believed to be buried among them".https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/55101/buttes-new-british-cemetery-polygon-wood/

The CWGC database shows a second man of the 5/6th Battalion as having died on the 2nd March 1918 - 240474 Private J. Liddell. There isn't a concentration report for him, but as the grave wasn't taken under management by the Imperial War Graves Commission, (the predecessor of the CWGC), until late 1920 and given the history of the cemetery it would seem likely that he was moved there. Soldiers Died in the Great War shows Private John Liddell as Killed in Action.

It doesn't look like the International Committee of the Red Cross received a missing person enquiry for either of them, so possibly their fate was known at or close to their time of death rather than them being recorded missing in action. John Liddell does turn up in official casualty lists in both July and November 1917, but couldn't readily spot him or Joseph Byrne in connection with their deaths.

Hope some of that helps,
Peter

Peter -thank you very much for your comprehensiuve reply to my post. Having not done any for 5 years or more, I'm a bit 'rusty' as far as researching soldiers who died during the First World War is concerned and had forgotten about the renumbering of the Territorial Force in 1917. Neither had I put two and two together to realise that the fact that Joseph Byrne only qualified for the VM and BWM indicated that he could not have served in a theatre of was in 1915!  Joseph's brother Edward Byrne was killed in action on 23 May 1916 so it is possible that the brothers never saw active service together.

Thanks again and Happy New Year

Bill

[Cameronian Volunteer]

Hello Bill

Apologies for the delay in replying due to a rather hectic Christmas. I have just picked up your thread.

I presume you have already found the limited information in the war diary for 23rd May 1966. I will check through what I have this weekend and get back to you. I have some information from the published 5th Battalion History and I have some information about their time before embarkation and the circumstances around the amalgamation of 1/5th and 1/6th battalions.

Best wishes

Eddie

[Cameronian Volunteer]

Hello again , Bill

Like you I haven’t been actively researching for a while.

I have checked through my copy of the “5th Scottish Rifles 1914-1919” and have attached scans of what you might be interested in. One shows that Rifleman E Byrne was in 3 Company when they arrived in France on 5^th November 1914. The other records what the battalion were doing on the Bethune front in May 1916. It also records a draft joining from 6^th S.R. but that is probably irrelevant to you. There are a few pages describing the front at Passchendaele in March 1918 where Joseph probably died. I am happy to scan those for you. At one time the book could be downloaded for free from an Australian library website but, although it is out of print, someone seems to have become concerned about copyright infringements. It’s an interesting read if you can get hold of a copy through a library.

You might be interested in some notes produced by W D Croft describing his time as the adjutant of the 5^th Battalion from mobilisation. This was available on the South Lanarkshire Museum Online Collection in their Written, Printed & Documents Section under Military History:

http://www.sllcmuseumscollections.co.uk/printed_and_digital.jsp

I presume it is still there. It is very interesting on how the soldiers from the Territorial Battalion were very reluctant to volunteer for foreign service when it initially seemed that they would be split up, but were happy to go if they remained as a unit. The “heid yins” had to make changes to their plans.

From the date of Edward’s death, I think you are right to conclude that they never served at the same time in the battalion.

Hope this helps. Sorry I can’t give you any more information.

Eddie

[Michelle Young]

Hopefully @yorksburnett has notifications on, but tagging just in case. 

[yorksburnett]

On 06/01/2024 at 17:14, Cameronian Volunteer said:

Hello again , Bill

Like you I haven’t been actively researching for a while.

I have checked through my copy of the “5th Scottish Rifles 1914-1919” and have attached scans of what you might be interested in. One shows that Rifleman E Byrne was in 3 Company when they arrived in France on 5^th November 1914. The other records what the battalion were doing on the Bethune front in May 1916. It also records a draft joining from 6^th S.R. but that is probably irrelevant to you. There are a few pages describing the front at Passchendaele in March 1918 where Joseph probably died. I am happy to scan those for you. At one time the book could be downloaded for free from an Australian library website but, although it is out of print, someone seems to have become concerned about copyright infringements. It’s an interesting read if you can get hold of a copy through a library.

You might be interested in some notes produced by W D Croft describing his time as the adjutant of the 5^th Battalion from mobilisation. This was available on the South Lanarkshire Museum Online Collection in their Written, Printed & Documents Section under Military History:

http://www.sllcmuseumscollections.co.uk/printed_and_digital.jsp

I presume it is still there. It is very interesting on how the soldiers from the Territorial Battalion were very reluctant to volunteer for foreign service when it initially seemed that they would be split up, but were happy to go if they remained as a unit. The “heid yins” had to make changes to their plans.

From the date of Edward’s death, I think you are right to conclude that they never served at the same time in the battalion.

Hope this helps. Sorry I can’t give you any more information.

Eddie

Hello Eddie

First my apologies for the delay but better late than never, many thanks for your response to my post concerning 5th Bn Cameroinians (Scottish Rifles). Thanks in particular for the scans of pages from “5th Scottish Rifles 1914-1919” and yes please could I take you up on your offer to scan the pages describing the front at Passchendaele in March 1918. 

I followed your link to the South Lanarkshire Museum Online Collection but have not been able to find the notes produced by W D Croft describing his time as the adjutant of the 5^th Battalion from mobilisation. I've tried searching on the author's name but get a nil return so am having to browse through the nearly 3000 items!

Bill

[Cameronian Volunteer]

Hello Bill

I'm out tonight but I'll scan the Passchendaele pages tomorrow.

I remember it took me a long time to find the Croft pages. I am sure I have a copy on my PC so I'll send that too. It's not a very friendly website.

Eddie

[Cameronian Volunteer]

Hello Bill

I have sent a personal message with the scans of the Passchendaele pages and Croft's notes.

William Denman Croft rose to the rank of Lieutenant-Colonel and his book "Three Years with the 9th (Scottish) Division, published in 1919 may be of interest to you. I don't know how much it includes of his time with the 5th Battalion.

On a slightly off-topic note, he also produced a book of English Folk Dances. I wonder how that might have gone down with his Scottish colleagues!

If there is anything else you think I might be able to help you with don't hesitate to ask.

Best wishes,

Eddie