Red Cross Records - William James Lloyd 2/Worcs

[Phil Evans]

Thanks, the extended map will be handy. There is another Zand, just to the East of Ghent, just to confuse things. That's where Google Maps took me last night and if you read McNally's burial paperwork on Library & Archives Canada, it adds to the confusion.

At the moment, I have two Englishmen (plus two Belgians and 26 Germans) who were relocated by the Germans from Lokeren to Dendermonde. No names yet, but when I get some dates to work with, they may be identifiable.

Phil

[seaforths]

Sounds promising and maybe Simon will turn something up on the Worcesters with the ICRC records. I would expect there was more than him wounded and captured at the time.

[seaforths]

Quite recently, I posted a download link to a listing of all the FO 383 files at TNA on this subforum. I've just searched it and got two hits on page 710 and 724. The former just states British prisoners held in Termonde, Ghent and the latter makes reference to a list of British POWs residing in the Termonde area. Both of these are 1918 and in amongst files on POWs kept behind lines (FO 383/407 and FO 383/419 refer).

[Phil Evans]

A few notes to be going on with:

Kriegslazarett 36 in Lokeren was at the Normalschule, which appears to be the State Boys High School in Groedreef.

St Anthony's College was in Luikstraat, Lokeren.

I have not been able to find a single picture of the German Military Cemetery in Termonde (Dendermonde), so far.

The article I have attempted to translate can be found here. The two passages below come from pages 16 & 17.

(page 16)

“On 7^th June 1917 the Germans began to concentrate on using a section of the monastery of the Friars Minor as a military hospital. All the necessary work for the nursing had to be carried out by the town. These were the buildings of the College of St Anthony (Figure 11). The students now had to attend classes at the factory “La Durme”.

On 19^th June the first soldiers came. A Red Cross train brought two or three hundred wounded and sick. The wounded went to the Fathers. The sick were housed in the Kriegslazarett at the State Boys High School in the Groedreef. Two weeks later the Fathers were put out of the monastery. The whole monastery was designated as a military hospital. Only the church and the sacristy were retained by the Fathers.”

(page 17)

“In May 1918 it was decided to exhume all the soldiers and rebury them all together in the military cemetery in Appels-Dendermonde. Twenty-six Germans, two English and two Belgians were removed. The other Belgians remained as the German authorities said that, as they were in a common grave,it was not possible to separate them out of it.

On the 10^th September 1918 the Hieronymite Brothers and the nuns of Our Lady of the Presentation were notified that their premises would become military hospitals. Lokeren would now have five military hospitals.”

I have summarised all the ICRC data for those buried in Dendermonde, but at the moment it is on Excel, so I can't post it without transferring it to some other format.

Phil

[Phil Evans]

Here is a screenshot of the relevant data:

Phil

[Simon_Fielding]

Fantastic research. I can feel a rewrite of WJL's entry coming on...

[seaforths]

Here is a screenshot of the relevant data:

Dendermonde Cemetery screenshot.jpg

Phil

Fab piece of work Phil! I also managed to locate another couple of maps on McMaster, between them, they might give some decent coverage but not singularly, if you get what I mean. My computer was sulking (actually my modem was sulking the PC is top banana) so I only managed to download one but I will have a crack at the other one later tonight. Let me know if you want those and I will pass them on or post the links.

[Phil Evans]

Simon,

I'm not sure that I can go much further with any certainty. I had to rely totally on Google Translate and then re-translate into some form of plain English. I hope I haven't lost anything in the process.

What isn't apparent from the two extracts as I posted them, is that there was a long section between them describing the winter of 1917-18 in Lokeren. The second passage does not specifically relate to the hospital at the monastery, but probably Lokeren in general. Therefore, I can't be sure who the two exhumed Englishmen were. I don't know where the grave numbers on the 1920 GRR Form originated from; whether they came from the German register, or the DGR & E . It is odd that Bessell and Ives retained the same grave number on the later version and were not part of the Belgian regrouping. Also that Kelly and McNally, who originally shared adjacent graves, were reburied in separate rows.

It is the first time I have come across an instance of the Germans concentrating graves during the hostilities. I would be interested to know if this occurred elsewhere. I would also like to know how many graves, of all nationalities, Dendermonde contained by the Armistice.

I do, however, now think that the majority of the Allied graves in Dendermonde are original. Hanson will probably forever be a mystery. There is a possibilty that Green and Molyneaux were the two exhumed in Lokeren, but I may be relying on the date they died too much. I would love to see the original German register, if it still exists.

Phil

Edit: Sorry Marjorie, I missed your post while I was ruminating before hitting the button. Thanks for the map offer. Whichever is easiest will be fine.

Edited 16 October , 2014 by Phil Evans

[ianshuter]

On 15/10/2014 at 21:54, Phil Evans said:

Here is a screenshot of the relevant data:

Phil

Thank you for this, I am researching the 3rd entry H Bicknell (Royal Warwickshire) and was looking for information on his place of death.