Red Cross Records - William James Lloyd 2/Worcs

[Simon_Fielding]

Am new to the ICRC records and struggling with the abbreviations:

Lloyd William (?) 2nd Worcestershire

3rd Company ?died? 10.5.18 in POW camp

Lokeren (?) (?)

Finger

Advice appreciated!

Current if on this soldier below!

Simon

"2nd Battalion Worcestershire Regiment 204092

Died of wounds in German captivity

10th May 1918

William James Lloyd was the brother of Arthur Lloyd (see above). He was the first of the

brothers to die, and the only man recorded on the St Anne’s Memorial to die a prisoner of

war.

William James Lloyd born in Dowles on the 27th June 1880. His father James’ occupation

then, and in the 1901 census was a ‘labourer’. William James was also general labourer in

1901, but by 1911 both he and Arthur were working as coal merchants. Kelly’s Directory lists

Edward (sic) and William Lloyd’s coal merchant business as being based in Dog Lane.1

Given William Lloyd's age, and the possibility that his trade as coal merchant may have led to

him having a reserved occupation, it is probable that he was a late conscript to the Armed

Forces sometime in 1917 or 1918. He served with the 2nd Battalion Worcestershire Regiment,

which at the end of the war formed part of the 100th Brigade of 33rd Division.

William Lloyd seems to have been a casualty of the fighting to resist the German attempt to

break through the British line in the Spring Offensive of 1918. The attempt to break through

the British Army near the River Lys was known as Operation Georgette, and the fighting took

place on a front from about six miles east of Ypres to six miles east of Béthune in France, 25

miles to the south. The front ran roughly northeast to southwest, and the River Lys, running

from southwest to northeast, crossed the front near Armentières in the middle of this zone.

The Battle of the Lys was a stalemate, mainly due to dogged British and Commonwealth

resistance, and lasted from April 7th to April 29th 1918.2

1 p.34 1912 and p.34 1916

2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Lys_(1918) 03/06/11

In April 1918, the 2nd Battalion Worcestershire Regiment had been very heavily engaged in

fighting to defend the small village of Neuve Eglise (now known as Nieuwkerke). Early in April

100th Brigade were training in the Penin area when on 10 April they received orders to move

to counter the new German offensive which became known as Operation Georgette. The

brigade was deployed by lorry to Meteren, which was being heavily shelled by the Germans,

and was filled with terrified refugees fleeing the German advance. The brigade moved on to

Bailleul, which was by now mostly in ruins. The 2 Worcestershire and the 16 K R R C moved

east of the town and marched forward into open country. There they prepared for battle. The

2nd Worcestershire formed the small "battle reserve" drawn from their already depleted

companies, which was to be used as an emergency reinforcement in the case of the German

breakthrough. It is typical of the ferocity of the fighting during this period that this small battle

reserve which distinguished itself so well in the following fighting, was completely wiped out,

with all its members killed, wounded or captured.

The brigade had been placed under the orders of 25 Division and had orders to help to hold

the "Army Line" which stretched from Le Romarin to Neuve Eglise. By dawn on April 12,

German high command began the attack which they hoped would force a breakthrough the

British lines towards the Channel ports. The battle reserve was deployed to reinforce the

faltering 88th brigade near the key village of Neuve Eglise itself. Desperate fighting raged in

this area throughout April 13, 1918, with the 2nd Worcestershire heavily engaged. During the

fighting for the village of Neuve Eglise, Captain J Crowe won the Victoria Cross for seizing

and neutralising a strong defended German machine gun position. By 6:30 PM on the

evening of the 14th April, the 2nd Worcestershire, reduced to only six officers and 100 men,

were withdrawn from the line to rejoin 100 Brigade near Hille. 3

The 2nd Battalion Worcestershire Regiment subsequently went into reserve and received

draft of new recruits. During its time in reserve positions, it continued to reconstitute itself

during the period at the end of April and beginning of May. The Battalion returned to the

Ypres sector in early May, moving to a temporary camp near Poperinghe on May 6th. This

position was under German observation from new positions on Kemmel Hill, and the

Worcestershire's camp was protected by camouflage screens. The Battalion was moved

forward to support positions during a German attack on May 8th, but soon returned to a new

camp near Brandhoek.

It was during this time that the Battalion was not engaged in combat operations, that William

Lloyd died of wounds received in action and was buried at Dendermonde Communal

Cemetery Extension. Dendermonde is situated between Antwerp and Ghent, in the Belgian

department of Oost-Vlaanderen. The cemetery contains 16 graves of Commonwealth

casualties of the First World War (one of them unidentified), who died while prisoners of war.

William Lloyd seems to have been wounded and captured, and according to the Casualty lists

in the, was reported missing along with 229 other men.4 While it is impossible to be certain, it

seems that Lloyd was wounded and captured during the fighting on the 12-14th April. His

death certificate confirms his death in German captivity of ‘wounds received in action’ but

gives his camp as ‘Limburg’."

[Phil Evans]

Simon,

Krgs. Laz. = Kriegslazarett, which roughly translates to Field Hospital. Lokeren is between Ghent and Antwerp, about 10km NNW of Dendermonde.

Phil

[Simon_Fielding]

Great! Thanks Phil. Another bit of puzzle!

[Phil Evans]

Dendermonde seems to be a centralised burial place. I had a look at another couple of men on Lloyd's GRRS sheet (Lawrence and Shanks), who died around the same time. They were both in a German hospital in Lede, about 10km SW of Dendermonde.

Phil

[Simon_Fielding]

Why the reference to Limburg on the Death Certificate I wonder? I vaguely recall that this was some sort of umbrella administrative camp?

[Phil Evans]

Simon,

It is possible that he never saw Limburg, but was illegally kept behind the front lines.

Seaforths has done a fair bit of work on this aspect and there are more detailed posts somewhere, but this link was the only one I could lay my hands on quickly.

Phil

[Simon_Fielding]

Not something I was aware of at all. I presumed Dendermonde was in Germany....

Might schkl be shoulder?

[roel22]

"Dienstged.n.angegb" = "Dienstgrad nicht angegeben" = "rank not mentioned"

The "e" in "Dienstged" probably is a typo

The abbreviations "Sch.lk.0" and "Schkl r, 3" refer to the bodyparts of William lloyd that were injured (like the "Finger").

"Sch." is "schulter" (shoulder"). Don't know about "Schkl", but "lk" and "r" are "links" and "rechts" (left and right).

Roel

[Simon_Fielding]

That's marvellous Roel - thank you.

[SiegeGunner]

Don't know about "Schkl", but "lk" and "r" are "links" and "rechts" (left and right).

'Schkl' = 'Schenkel' = thigh

[Simon_Fielding]

Brilliant - thank you.

[seaforths]

A bit of a strange one...It seems as though there has been an administrative mess made with his death certificate. I can only guess that Limburg was possibly his intended destination or they have mixed him up with someone else. The death certificates I have for men registered with an official camp but died hundreds of miles away actually reflect their true location of death. I also wonder if he was being moved and died shortly afterwards near the start of his journey. From the information Phil posted it could be so but they would not continue to transport them if they had died, but possibly being taken to a central point at Dendermonde for possible entraining, if they died on the way there, then it could explain the cemetery. Their place of death might be given as the location they had just left/been moved from. They were struggling very badly to keep up with German and prisoner wounded at the field hospitals. Many men received little or no medical attention and died outside of them, because there was not room inside and the only way they could make room was to move them onward as soon as they were able to do so. I'm not sure how far they would have taken the dead to bury them, which is why I am wondering if he died shortly after being moved. From some accounts, those that died in a field hospital were taken away to be buried in carts pulled by other prisoners as the horses, in their pitiable state, were needed elsewhere. I'm not sure that prisoners would have been able to move them so far. Those that died in the field hospital were probably buried closer to the hospital. Those being moved (still alive) on carts and trucks which for many, was too much for them to endure.

I don't have anything on Limburg being used to 'hide' prisoners kept at the front but that's not to say it wasn't but in this case, he was wounded in action and those men were being moved down the evacuation chain towards Germany.

[Simon_Fielding]

Thanks for your thoughts Seaforths. I'll try and dig out the certificate. Is there anything I could be reading on the experiences of Spring Offensive / Lys prisoners?

[seaforths]

Simon,

It is possible that he never saw Limburg, but was illegally kept behind the front lines.

Seaforths has done a fair bit of work on this aspect and there are more detailed posts somewhere, but this link was the only one I could lay my hands on quickly.

Phil

Phil, I've posted some thoughts on this already but I am beginning to think that all is not right with CWGC records. I did say before that I had found a sheet with handwriting across the top 'All Concentrations' with absolutely nothing to say where the men in question were concentrated from. Now I have been digging around a little on Lokeren and found the following:

The CWGC has him as buried Dendermonde and don't show him as being concentrated from Zand and his date of death on their records showing as 9 October 1916. However, reading the headstone information, they managed to get the correct date of 1918 for that at least. I have also found this:

http://www.jackclegg3.webspace.virginmedia.com/Hidden.htm

Which seems to indicate burials were also made at a cemetery in Lokeren. But it seems that they would not have been able to concentrate these burials, as their exact spots are not known. Also, scroll down to Oswald Hanson and he seems to have been buried in this cemetery in Lokeren but CWGC records = Dendermonde.

I am not sure that he was moved at all. I do think that it is possible that he and a number of others have been concentrated into Dendermonde but the CWGC don't reflect this and I really cannot see that they would move men who had died that distance to bury them.

Appreciate any thoughts you might have on it and I am no expert on burials and concentrations but I just get the feeling something is not quite right here.

Simon, sorry I haven't answered your question on reading - I have been digging around elsewhere as you can probably gather from the content of this post.

[Simon_Fielding]

Fascinating - might the concentration been done by others than the CWGC?

DENDERMONDE COMMUNAL CEMETERY contains the grave of one Commonwealth airman of the Second World War.

"The adjoining COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION was made by the Germans during the First World War but the graves were regrouped into distinct Belgian German and Commonwealth plots by the Belgian Graves Service after the Armistice. The extension contains the graves of 16 Commonwealth casualties of the First World War (one of them unidentified), who died while prisoners of war."

Might more have gone on than regrouping? Any Belgian records available?

[seaforths]

I can post a list of missing/missing and wounded for 2 Worcs. from the British Red Cross Enquiry Lists (your man is on that). If you eliminate those that were missing because they were killed via CWGC, it should give you a foothold into the ICRC records for the others as one of their records might mention place & date of capture. It would also give you a chance to check the WO 161 files to see if any of them gave post war interviews. If they have a regimental museum, there might be some personal diaries from prisoners captured at that time too.

Edit: My knowledge on Belgian geography isn't brilliant but isn't there a province called Limburg in Belgium (as opposed to the Netherlands/German Limburgs)

[Phil Evans]

Edit: My knowledge on Belgian geography isn't brilliant but isn't there a province called Limburg in Belgium (as opposed to the Netherlands/German Limburgs)

As I found out about 2 hours ago. Tucked in the NE corner. Hasselt would be about the centre of it.

As to your post #14, I'll work on it. I was a bit suspicious when I found the Lede burials (post #4).

Unfortunately, there are a few missing links in the CWGC Concentration documents, especially where men have been moved twice.

I could also do with Sheet 22( NE), but can't find one anywhere online so far. However, I have discovered that Dendermonde (Termonde) Communal Cemetery is actually at Zand, although the location description on a CEF Circumstances of Death card is confusing me even more.

Phil

[seaforths]

Thanks Phil, I'll fire up the beastie and see if I have the map you're looking for.

[Simon_Fielding]

I'd be grateful for the list of 2/Worcs Red Cross enquiries Seaforths - this is new territory for me!

[seaforths]

As I found out about 2 hours ago. Tucked in the NE corner. Hasselt would be about the centre of it.

As to your post #14, I'll work on it. I was a bit suspicious when I found the Lede burials (post #4).

Unfortunately, there are a few missing links in the CWGC Concentration documents, especially where men have been moved twice.

I could also do with Sheet 22( NE), but can't find one anywhere online so far. However, I have discovered that Dendermonde (Termonde) Communal Cemetery is actually at Zand, although the location description on a CEF Circumstances of Death card is confusing me even more.

Phil

Phil this is the best I could come up with from 1914:

I thought that there might be an ICRC record for Lt.Cdr. Hanson that might show place of death/burial. He has two cards on ICRC but no reference to any records. However, one of the cards states:

I'd be grateful for the list of 2/Worcs Red Cross enquiries Seaforths - this is new territory for me!

Simon here is the list:

WORCESTERS.docx

[Simon_Fielding]

That's brilliant - I'll have a go at it today.

[Phil Evans]

Thanks Marjorie. The contemporary map is much better than trying to use Google Maps, especially with the old versions of the place names.

At the moment, I'm of the impression that the Dendermonde burials, (ignoring the re-grouping), are original.

Like you, I am finding that several men have no, or very little, ICRC documentation. I have been working on a couple of the RAF men, but got bogged down trying to locate Kriegslazarett Abt. 36 and the Franciscan monastery St. Antonius.

Give me a couple of weeks, I might get somewhere.

Phil

[seaforths]

Thanks Marjorie. The contemporary map is much better than trying to use Google Maps, especially with the old versions of the place names.

At the moment, I'm of the impression that the Dendermonde burials, (ignoring the re-grouping), are original.

Like you, I am finding that several men have no, or very little, ICRC documentation. I have been working on a couple of the RAF men, but got bogged down trying to locate Kriegslazarett Abt. 36 and the Franciscan monastery St. Antonius.

Give me a couple of weeks, I might get somewhere.

Phil

I've been on one of your usual haunts today:

http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,182609609,var,Doodsprentje-Sterbebild-Lokeren-Vladslo-1917-Moerzeke-Munitions-Kolonne,language,E.html

If I'm not mistaken this man was originally buried Lokeren and later, moved to Dendermonde. It gives the number of the Kriegslazarett Lokeren as Abt. 130

St Antonius - where? I'm getting a few hits for that one...

[Phil Evans]

I've spent a lot of time there today as well.

St Antonius is in or very close to Lokeren. It may have had a satellite building in Durmer. I don't know if the building is still there and it may have become an Industrial School at some time. It may also be getting mixed up with the one in Ronse though.

From this German thread, we could be talking about the same place, which makes what I am trying to translate at the moment, a bit confusing, as there it says that the monastery was taken over in June 1917.

Phil

[seaforths]

I see what you mean. I will fire up the beastie and send you the full map. It's silly file size but better quality so I will have to upload it first but it goes further west to take in Ghent I cropped it down quite a bit to keep the file size down but still had to use photobucket.

I see too what you mean about Zand/Termonde, I don't know anything about the man's case but if he was executed, he could have been taken there for a kangaroo court before the deed.