Guest CGI Posted 29 October , 2004 Share Posted 29 October , 2004 I could not believe my ears when I first heard this. But then the pictures started coming in, and it was even much worse than I had expected : the Turkish authorities are constructing an immense parking lot of some 200 m long, right on top of the 1915 positions of Turkish Quinn's, just opposite of the cemetery. Everything is gone. For Good. This can never be repaired. And God knows why they did it. I'm still balancing between being very sad and extremely angry at such blatant stupidity. At such a total neglect for one's own history. At the complete lack of respect for their own soldiers still buried underneath. I am wondering what the WWI society could possibly do to condemn this. I'll post more details once they come through, but here are some pics already to give you an idea of the damage done. Jul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CGI Posted 29 October , 2004 Share Posted 29 October , 2004 another one, with Quinn's Post cemetery at the right hand side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CGI Posted 29 October , 2004 Share Posted 29 October , 2004 and another one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted 29 October , 2004 Share Posted 29 October , 2004 Jul Very sorry to see that this is happening. I walked all over that area in 2002. As this area is part of a National Park wouldn't they have had to get permission from various authorities to be able to build something like this? I'd hope the proper authorities would be informed if any bones were discovered while they are putting the carpark there Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 29 October , 2004 Share Posted 29 October , 2004 Any so called ‘development’ on this battlefield is going to be contravercial and I would dearly love to have one of out Turkish Pals return to the GWF to give us their thoughts on this In their absence [temporary I hope] I would like to make the following points - The whole place is so small; “A total area, from Gaba Tepe to Walker’s Ridge and from Anzac Cove to Quinn’s Post, of about 3 square miles; or as Alan Moorehead described it, ‘not much bigger than Regent’s Park.’” [Nigel Steel’s “Gallipoli”] In to this confined space, which has even less level ground, must be accommodated facilities for both the Allied and the Turkish public who wish to make contact with their past and with their heritage. - Actually on the site of Turkish Quinn’s is a Turkish Memorial commemorating their losses on 19th May 1915 and their eventual success in containing the Anzac forces. No doubt like its allied counterparts, it is attracting ever more and more visitors each year, all of whom have to be transported to this lonely spot and that transport catered for with parking. - Because of the confined space and its topology this is not the first time that sites of interest have been put to other uses e.g.: There is the Turkish 57th Regiment’s Memorial which is built on The Chessboard and the allies’ Baby 700 Cemetery which is built on a Turkish observation post The point which I am trying to make, is that I find myself in a bit of a cleft stick on this subject. Gallipoli is important to me, however I can quite easily appreciate that it is equally important to others, not least to the Turks . Further, I am pleased to see the circle of interest in this campaign is growing from year to year. What I now have to be reconciled to, is that this growing interest inevitably means there will be more ‘developments’ in important areas. Let us hope that any changes are made after very careful consideration and that the Turkish authority of the Peninsula Historical National Park, exercise wise judgement on behalf of all who lie buried in its soil. Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baby700 Posted 29 October , 2004 Share Posted 29 October , 2004 Je ne sais quoi dire devant cette incident. Kilicbayiri (Baby 700) n'est plus capable de defendre Bombasirti (Turkish Quinn's). La gloire et les memoires de 27ieme Régiment, restees sous le parking maintenant. La position et le tissus historique 'gone forever'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Mackenzie Posted 29 October , 2004 Share Posted 29 October , 2004 They presumably did not have to dig down far (if at all) to put in the car park so the archaeology is still there but covered over. Or have they obliterated everything in levelling off the ground? Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted 29 October , 2004 Share Posted 29 October , 2004 What can you say, it's their country and they probably have more visitors coming these days as travel is easier so need a carpark. It may get like the somme with coaches rolling up all year round!! At least they aren't putting a motorway over the whole place unlike Ypres area. It is sad though. If anyone is up that way I would appreciate a photo of Alick John Baker's grave No D20 but only if in the vicinity. Aye Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 29 October , 2004 Share Posted 29 October , 2004 Another fine example of progress for us to bear witness to. How much of the world needs to be a car park and isnt there enough land other than that area? If I had any that bounce, Id throw all my toys outta tha pram about now. Huh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatterySergeantMajor Posted 29 October , 2004 Share Posted 29 October , 2004 Hi Malcolm The extension of the Ypres A19 motorway is not yet decided. Problem is that it probably wil be a David against Goliath affair (read: cultural history/environment interests against economics/big money). One of the problems is that Flemish people think everyone should have a motorway just up to their loo. Also some people of the local Great War scene are more interested in the manufacturing year of uniform buttons than in the historical and emotional value of the landscape (nothing wrong with being interested in buttons, as long as you see in in it's context). I even heard someone who should now better saying that the Pilckem Ridge area was not of exceptional historic value. So let's hope that local decision-makers will show that they are aware of their responsability towards history. Rememberance is more than giving speeches at commemorations. If not, it is the clearest proof that the battlefield-visitor is only treated as an economic factor, or, somewhat lesser polite, a money-milkcow. Which would be a demonstration of a tremendous lack of respect. Maybe this reaction is leading a bit far from Gallipoli, but also in those days it was about the same war. Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted 29 October , 2004 Share Posted 29 October , 2004 I even heard someone who should now better saying that the Pilckem Ridge area was not of exceptional historic value. As 2 of my Great Uncles are still somewhere under that area I would be a bit pissed off with that view! Aye Malcolm ps. back to Quinn's Post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krithia Posted 29 October , 2004 Share Posted 29 October , 2004 Its tragic the authorities have selected this precise area, as there are so many other sites that could have been chosen. Again, compromises have to be made. As with most turkish car parks this one will probably be populated by locals selling the usual souvenir tack !!! What memorial is this ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yves Le Cuziat, MBE Posted 30 October , 2004 Share Posted 30 October , 2004 Very very sad..Gallipoli is indeed for ever a place of DEFEAT for Humanity. Lest we Forget Yves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southafricawargraves Posted 30 October , 2004 Share Posted 30 October , 2004 I've been to Gallipoli twice. In total have spent over 2.5 months there staying in Ecebaet and at the CWGC cottages. That area around Quinn's Post is difficult terrain and with the increase of traffic (up to 100000 a year +) they need extra parking. Not trying to justify the parking lot but if the Turks built the parking lot they had a good reason. They (Turks) are just as proud of Gallipoli as the ANZACS are, if not more so. Helles in the south gets more visitors then ANZAC does, the bus tours go all day. It is a pilgrimage site. The worst thing about the whole area is not the increase of parking but the garbage. From Suvla to Helles it is a dump. One person can only do what they can to pick up trash (something I did everyday walking the battlefields). The scary thing is that ANZAC to me seemed to be the worst area. Day-trippers dumping their crap all over the place and thinking CWGC is responsible for cleaning it up. I have to mention that I do not recall any such memorial at Turkish Quinn's, if there was one it must have been hidden. Frankly I can walk that whole area in my sleep and I'm really straining to think what may have been there. As for disturbing bones, the whole area of Gallipoli is rife with bones and one only has to dig down a few inches to start finding them. Everyday I would find bones in all the sectors that it came to be very commonplace to me and frankly I stopped burying what I did find because I'd be at it still. The Turks and the CWGC don't want to know about the bones, because they already do know about them. Unless you find a complete skeleton with a dog tag (extremely unlikely) what else are they to do? The whole area is considered one large cemetery. The Australians have a Gallipoli plan that I've seen that would do much worse to the actual battlefield then the parking lot at Quinn's. I love Gallipoli and can see myself going back again and again for the rest of my life but I feel there are far more serious issues to deal with in that area then a parking lot at Quinn's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CGI Posted 30 October , 2004 Share Posted 30 October , 2004 Here's a pic of the 'hidden' Turkish memorial. It must have been some time since you have last been there if you cannot remember it. As for the bones, they all mysteriously disappeared all at once in the nineties. Greetings, Jul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWills Posted 30 October , 2004 Share Posted 30 October , 2004 What can you say, it's their country and they probably have more visitors coming these days as travel is easier so need a carpark. It may get like the somme with coaches rolling up all year round!! ......... Aye Malcolm I think Malcolm is spot on here. The vast number of coaches visiting makes the area busier than key areas of the Somme or Salient at weekends (less so during the week) and the roads and facilities in the area simply cannot cope. At times the road becomes a procession of coaches. Almost all of these visitors are Turkish and are actively encouraged through what I am given to understand is a series of subsidies or grants to support the costs of Turkish parties visiting the area. We should welcome the fact that it is well visited and that the efforts of both sides are remembered. The downside of this is the need for facilities and parking - not least in the interests of personal safety. Extensive two way coach traffic was becoming dangerous. The choice of location may not be perfect, but it is inevitable that any work in this area will encroach upon parts of the battlefield. I think we probably have to live with that as a compromise. The less well visited areas are still much as they were. The "car park" is only one of a number of changes on the peninsula. The new one way system at Anzac is part of this work. To my mind the creation of the new road, southward, from Chunuk Bair is a positive move as it serves to open up the perspective from behind the Turkish lines. The fact that the roads are "one way" also means that the areas to the side of the road are not encroached upon through the need for vehicles to pass. Parking areas for travellers are few in number. You can find some space at Lone Pine; there is a fair space at the 57th Regiment Memorial and there is some limited space at Chunuk Bair. The worst of recent changes are those at the Turkish Memorial at Helles. Here the new memorial ground, laid out with representative memorial stones has been uprooted to provide a car park for (as I understand) disabled access. The representative stones served to provide a focus for Turkish visitors identifying (typically) a name and area of Turkey to which visitors from that area could relate. Some of the stones have been relocated but there is now a smaller set than there was before. Whilst welcoming access for the disabled there was no real need to use that particular space and uproot the memorial garden. The old car park area adjacent to the memorial could have been used equally effectively. Access for others is now up a steep path from a car park below the memorial with a "dropping" off space for cars (coaches are discouraged) closer to the memorial. The only positive addition is a vast relief against a long wall which is impressive. These particular changes at Helles are widely considered by the Turks in the area to be poor and in bad taste and I can only agree with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southafricawargraves Posted 1 November , 2004 Share Posted 1 November , 2004 That pic is of 57th Regiment Memorial and cemetery. Cemetery is fake, no bones in cemetery but the Turks built it so that the Turkish people could have a place to mourn. Yes that is near Quinn's Post but there is already a parking lot there, it was there in Sep. 2002, the first time I was there. Thought it was something completely new. Huge for the Turks, the ANZAC daytrippers barely stop. Turks in parking lot selling dried chick peas and postcards but no one hassles you. They have this fake plaque at top end of cemetery saying that when they built the cemetery they found the remains of a Turk and an Englishman locked in a death struggle. They name the Englishman but he isn't on any list at all, a Captain if I recall. I'll see if I can dig up the pic and post it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted 1 November , 2004 Share Posted 1 November , 2004 Huge for the Turks, the ANZAC daytrippers barely stop. I'd be very careful in making generalisations like that mate. Both times I've been in there, there have been quite a few 'Anzac day trippers' there. Plus I've seen the local turkish tour guides take non-Turkish tour groups through there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat McLachlan Posted 3 November , 2004 Share Posted 3 November , 2004 The choice of Turkish Quinn's for the new carpark is a bit of a shame. To me the most graphic example of the Gallipoli struggle is the tiny distance that seperated the trenches at Quinn's - no man's land was really only as wide as the road. Walking from the Cemetery across the road and seeing the remains of trenches at Turkish Quinn's really brought home how close each fighting side was to the other. I reckon this effect will be lost on visitors now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CGI Posted 3 November , 2004 Share Posted 3 November , 2004 Or you could see it this way : perhaps it is understandable that the authorities want to enable Turks to see the place where their forefathers fought and died and where many are still buried. After all, it was part of the front where they suffered 10 000 casualties during the attack of 19th May, to mention one thing. So what do you do then : you construct a 200 m-long parking lot right on top of the old position, so that the visitors 1. can now come there and 2. cannot see anything anymore. This is a kind of logic I do not entirely understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dugong Posted 17 November , 2004 Share Posted 17 November , 2004 I must say I was very sad when I read this thread. I was there only 2 months ago and did not see the work being done. I hope I was not blind. My Great-Grandfather fought at Quinn's with the 2nd Light Horse. It was an honour to visit there. Some photos of Quinn's can be found at: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/princeofslee...h7_c4BBJ7wE9QCM I hope you enjoy viwing them as much as I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted 17 November , 2004 Share Posted 17 November , 2004 Some good photos there dugong. A relative on my mums side of the family was also in the 2nd LH at Gallipoli. Cheers Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baby700 Posted 12 January , 2005 Share Posted 12 January , 2005 The latest situation in Turkish Quinn's. Excuse me, Turkish Quinn's Park! The car parking is now just on the top of the first Turkish fire line, otherwise just on the top of the trenches no: 19-20-21 The Number 20 trench, also called Ali Chavoush trench was famous with his bravery. In old photograph, you see Captain Sadik Effendi (not very famous like his opponent Captain Quinn), Lieutenant İsmail Efendi and the first line soldiers of 27th. Regiment during the campaign. They shall not sleep, though cars and buses growl In Gallipoli fields Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baby700 Posted 12 January , 2005 Share Posted 12 January , 2005 Bombasirti= Turkish Quinn's, Decembre 2004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted 12 January , 2005 Share Posted 12 January , 2005 They shall not sleep, though cars and buses growl In Gallipoli fields or They shall not sleep, BECAUSE cars and buses growl In Gallipoli fields Regards, Marco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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