On Neuve-Chapelle Indian memorial yet died at home

[tootrock]

Hi Liz,

Final missing piece of his service career:

From London Gazette Issue 27858, page 8538, date 28 November 1905

The King’s (Liverpool Regiment), Second Lieutenant Edward Hornby Ovans, from 3^rd Battalion, The Dorsetshire Regiment, in succession to Lieutenant R, Prince, transferred to the Indian Army.

May well be at The Redoubt.

Martin

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Oh, you are clever, Martin! I do now - I think - understand the problem with the Gazette, namely their letter-recognition software, and I try to anticipate possible running-together of words etc, but I still miss some. By the way I recently saw the word 'mebitobiotts' in one of their transcriptions and it turned out to be 'meritorious'.

Alas no nearer answering the main question!

Hope to see you at the Redoubt.

Liz

[chrisharley9]

But he died in Boscombe, Nigel, according to the Times announcement from his mother. I assume she buried him - I don't know where but it would hardly have been unknown. And probate was granted in less than four weeks.

Thanks, Chris. It's the opposite of a non-comm though, isn't it?

Liz

Not a problem really Liz. He is not a non comm but no known grave due to a clerical error. I have sorted out hundreds of these. My first port of call will be Bournemouth. Will keep you updated

Chris

[clk]

He doesn't appear to be buried in the municipal cemetery in East Sheen. (I did an online check using http://www2.richmond.gov.uk/lbrburials/(S(wbz1ep45rni1aq4524balf3x))/Search.aspx ). If Chris doesn't have any luck with Bournemouth, and you go back to the East Sheen option, then it might be worth a long shot of contacting the parish churches and asking if they have any burial records. It's worked a couple of times for me in the past. It looks like contact details can be found here http://www.mortlakeparish.org.uk/wdpress/clergy/

Regards

Chris

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Not a problem really Liz. He is not a non comm but no known grave due to a clerical error. I have sorted out hundreds of these. My first port of call will be Bournemouth. Will keep you updated

Chris

Well, that's reassuring! Thanks, Chris.

Re my post you quoted, it would probably be his widow, Mary Marjorie Ovans nee Harington, who registered and announced the death not his mother as I mistakenly supposed from the Times announcement at first. I now realise his mother died in 1909.

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

He doesn't appear to be buried in the municipal cemetery in East Sheen. (I did an online check using http://www2.richmond.gov.uk/lbrburials/(S(wbz1ep45rni1aq4524balf3x))/Search.aspx ). If Chris doesn't have any luck with Bournemouth, and you go back to the East Sheen option, then it might be worth a long shot of contacting the parish churches and asking if they have any burial records. It's worked a couple of times for me in the past. It looks like contact details can be found here http://www.mortlakeparish.org.uk/wdpress/clergy/

Regards

Chris

Thank you too, Chris, for checking that. I'll wait and see how Chris Harley gets on first, as you suggest.

Liz

[chrisharley9]

No trace at all in Bournemouth; we know that he is not in the cemetery at East Sheen. Will check a few other leads then get back to you

Chris

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Thanks, Chris. We know he is not in the East Sheen municipal cemetery but I have not yet followed up Chris(CLK)'s suggestion of trying the churches. He was baptised in Christ Church, East Sheen. If you haven't tried them, I will.

EDIT I decided to email Christ Church and got a very fast reply - there's no graveyard, and even the one at the old parish church of St Mortlake would have been closed by then.

Liz

Edited 18 September , 2014 by Liz in Eastbourne

[chrisharley9]

Just checked the Mortlake parish records Liz & he is not there. May have to look at a churchyard in the Bournemouth area.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Thanks, Chris. Re Bournemouth churches, I wondered about the local Boscombe one, but the Ovanses didn't belong there. I wonder where his parents were buried? Perhaps I should wait till his widow's nephew returns from holiday in a week or two and check whether he knows. I shall feel embarrassed if it turns out he was buried in Eastbourne, where his wife's family still had a home, and where she married again in 1916 and remained thereafter.

If not, the riddle should be solved eventually as he was the youngest of a large family and there must be collateral descendants who'll take an interest in his war record at some point.

Liz

[clk]

I did a trawl of the 1911 census for Spa Road, Boscombe, and didn't see a property called "Durham", but there was one called "Durban" which appears to have been split into appartments:

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_05849_0257_03/42735193?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3d1911england%26so%3d2%26pcat%3d1911UKI%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26gss%3dangs-c%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln_x%3dXO%26gskw%3d%2522spa%2broad%2522%2bboscombe%26gskw_x%3d1%26uidh%3drc2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults#?imageId=rg14_05849_0245_03

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_05849_0257_03/42735193?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3d1911england%26so%3d2%26pcat%3d1911UKI%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26gss%3dangs-c%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln_x%3dXO%26gskw%3d%2522spa%2broad%2522%2bboscombe%26gskw_x%3d1%26uidh%3drc2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults#?imageId=rg14_05849_0247_03

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_05849_0257_03/42735193?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3d1911england%26so%3d2%26pcat%3d1911UKI%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26gss%3dangs-c%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln_x%3dXO%26gskw%3d%2522spa%2broad%2522%2bboscombe%26gskw_x%3d1%26uidh%3drc2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults#?imageId=rg14_05849_0249_03

There was though a "Durham Lodge" at 1, St John's Avenue, Boscombe

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_05849_0257_03/42735193?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3d1911england%26so%3d2%26pcat%3d1911UKI%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26gss%3dangs-c%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln_x%3dXO%26gskw%3d%2522spa%2broad%2522%2bboscombe%26gskw_x%3d1%26uidh%3drc2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults#?imageId=rg14_05849_0275_03

I'm beginning to think that Boscombe may be a red herring, and was just somewhere he lived, maybe hoping that the benefit of the sea air would help him recuperate, and his actual "home" was elsewhere. Then if he weren't buried there, I'd take a gamble that he was buried with his parents. I don't know where that is though.

Have you come across his father's marriage certificate (30th September 1869 at Barnes, Surrey - John Lambert Ovans to Lina Mary Phipps Hornby). Explains your mans' middle name. Also interesting that it shows that Edwards' paternal grandfather was a Major General. Speculation on my part, but maybe there is a family plot somewhere.

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/4779/40815_1831109333_1372-00098/7848219?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dsurreymarriages%26so%3d2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-g%26gsfn%3djohn%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dovans%26gsln_x%3dXO%26cpxt%3d1%26catBucket%3drstp%26uidh%3drc2%26cp%3d11&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Regards

Chris

[Liz in Eastbourne]

I think you may well be right there, Chris. It was the fact that the Boscombe address was given as his address for probate that swayed me but I have quite recently seen a case in Eastbourne where the probate entry address was just a lodging house as he'd recently come from India.

The paternal grandfather who was a Major-General was from Northumberland, wasn't he? I haven't done any very careful genealogy searching, but did look at a few Ancestry records and a family tree, so had seen the Hornby connection. Father was a solicitor.

I think I will ask the cemetery staff here in Eastbourne, just in case what with the war and both his parents being dead his wife actually arranged the funeral closest to her own home.

Liz

[clk]

Hi Liz,

Getting off the WW1 piste a bit..

It does look possible that his grandfather was from Northumberland, but without trying to research the family properly, I really wouldn't like to say. I think that it would be really interesting to spend some time on grandfather Charles Ovans (died 20th July 1858). I found a record held by the University of Manchester Library holding "reports of 2 discussions on the case of the deposed raja of Sattara and the impeachment of Lieutenant-Colonel C. Ovans, 22-23 Aug and 24 Sep 1845, in which a George Thompson spoke in defence of the raja and Colonel Ovans; historical notes by George Thompson", dated London, 24 Oct 1845". I guess that Charles' career with the East India Company didn't suffer as a consequence if he was later elevated to the rank of Major General. Would be interesting to find out why he was impeached, and what role he had in the raja being deposed.

Regards

Chris

[KevinBattle]

Hmmm..... Colonel Ovans was the Quarter Master General of the Bombay Army, according to this http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SYOSHaZnBy8C&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=raja+of+Satara&source=bl&ots=j3JKs3w1jE&sig=VnaUBlxkJ8IPq1ts-rLMsVS5DOQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8GQbVODHH-jF7Aa6hIGYDA&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=raja%20of%20Satara&f=false

The Satara Raj 1818-1848 A Study in History, Administration and Culture by Sumitra Kulkani

Col Ovans was appointed as Resident to the Satara Raja in June 1837 and seems to have been complicit to the actions of the Bombay Government in the dethronement of the Raja and supporting a feckless puppet in his place. How thaat takes us further, I don't know, but at least I Learnt Something New about the Satara Raj!

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Glad you learned something about the Satara Raj, Kevin, but as Chris says, we're getting off the WW1 piste a bit! I had noticed those references but resolutely avoided going into them as I fear that I can't do a full family exploration either - I didn't expect the burial place to prove such a riddle. I'm defecting for the weekend at about noon and am unlikely to post again till next Monday or Tuesday.

Now that Bournemouth and East Sheen seem to have been more or less eliminated, I am still thinking I may get an answer locally because of his wife's family being based here (when not in India, Mespot etc). It's just possible they may have put an announcement in the local paper but I can't look till next week.

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

I have now eliminated the Ocklynge cemetery in Eastbourne as a possible burial place and Capt Ovans' widow's nephew, now back from holiday, doesn't know where he was buried, but has given me some family contacts who just might be able to help. I checked the local papers for the months after his death, but could find no announcement.

That's just to let you know I haven't given up (since Martin enquired when I met him at the Redoubt lecture a couple of weeks ago!).

Liz

[Michael Hornby]

I can throw some light on this. According to family tradition, Edward Ovans died of diabetes in England. I believe he is buried in Winchester. Why his name is on the memorial I don't know - I don't think he served in France. He left the navy, again according to family tradition, because he suffered badly from sea-sickness, and joined 125th Napier's Rifles where there were family connections. Let me know if you have other questions.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Welcome to the forum, Michael Hornby, and thank you for such a helpful intervention. I had not yet got round to contacting the other family members whose addresses I had been given (feeling a bit shy about telling total strangers I have been nosing around in their records...) so it is very good to have your information. I would not have thought of looking in Winchester.

I thought he must have been in France to have been mistakenly put on the Neuve-Chapelle memorial...but did we find a Medal Index Card? The trouble with Indian Army records is they are not at the National Archives in Kew, I believe.

I guess we should still find out exactly where Capt. Ovans is buried in Winchester, so that Chris can notify the CWGC.

Liz

[Michael Hornby]

I'll see whether any of the family papers show where he is buried. I suppose he may have come to France with his division and then sent back to the UK. Now that you pose the question, it will be interesting to see whether there is anything in the records.

[Michael Hornby]

Further to some other points in the thread: I believe it was absolutely standard for Indian Army officers to be attached to British regiment when first posted to India, for a year or so whilst they learnt Urdu or Hindi or Gurkhali (or whatever). Hence his short spell with the Dorsets. He had a son before he died. There was a big naval connection on his mother's family's side, which is presumably why he was pushed in that direction.(His brothers were with KOSB and Northumberland Fusiliers.) His father John Lambert did commence an army career (ensign with a regiment of Bombay Infantry) but was obliged to return to England for family reasons, where he re-trained as a solicitor. Grandfather Maj-Gen Charles Ovans - there's a story for someone with time on their hands. He was posted as Resident to the court of the Rajah of Satara, apparently replacing someone less in tune with the thinking of the Governor, Sir Robert Grant, and whilst he was Resident the Rajah was deposed. "The policy which led to the annexation of Satara on the ground of so-called failure of lawful heirs, was perhaps the chief cause which brought on the Indian Mutiny in 1957" - according to one history. Sir Robert Grant and his circle in the East India Company are described as "evangelicals" in the histories - mostly Scotsmen it seems. A bit of a diversion from WW1 I know but it was a very big scandal at the time. Karl Marx wrote about it!

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Thank you very much, Michael. I didn't realise there was a son from his marriage to Marjorie Harington. I am resolutely keeping out of the fascinating Satara business!

I do hope you discover whether Capt Ovans went to France with the 125th Napier's Rifles, and which cemetery in Winchester he is buried in - although we ought to be able to find that out.

Liz

[Michael Hornby]

Liz,

There is a memorial tablet in a church in Mhow (where 125th Napier's Rifles were based in 1914) which reads: " To the Glory of God and ever loving memory of Edward Hornby Ovans 125th Napier's Rifles who died in England after a long illness on March 23rd 1915 aged 32 years. They also serve who only stand and wait". I can scan the photo to you if you are interested. I doubt whether it will be possible to establish his exact movements but according to Wikipedia the Lahore Division (3rd Indian) arrived in France - Marseilles I think - on 27th September 1914. It is is unlikely that he would have been repatriated separately before this, so I presume he accompanied the battalion - which was with this division - to France and was released and sent back to England where he died.

My notes say that 125th Napier's Rifles was the new identity of 25th Bombay (Native?) Infantry, where his father and grand-father served.

I don't have any record of where he is buried but believe it was at Winchester. I don't think that I can help you any more beyond this, but am curious to know what drew your attention to him.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Thank you very much, Michael - that is fascinating and you have moved the discussion a long way on. I will pm you about the photo.

I did try to reserve the war diary file for 125th Napier's Rifles up last time I went to Kew but got the response that it was not available for some reason and didn't pursue it as I had more than enough other files to occupy me. But that might well state when he left for England. You'll have noticed from my posts about the London Gazette entries that he was only put on half-pay at about the same time as his death, so it doesn't sound as if he had been there long.

I explained how I'd become curious about Capt Ovans in post 11 but would be happy to elaborate by pm.

From the point of view of Chris correcting the CWGC commemoration of him as 'missing' I guess we still need to find his grave in Winchester.

Liz

[Loader]

Makes sense if he went to France with his unit & his illness was made worse by the climate. Sent home to UK where he died. If he'd been in India would they have sent him back to UK if that sick? Hope his resting place can be found finally.

The words on the plaque seem to indicate he did not see much active service with his unit but he could've gone to France with them but once there not well enough to perform duties & home. Very sad but glad his story is being investigated & shared.

[Michael Hornby]

Liz

The address the forum gave me for you for the photo is not a recognisable e-mail address.