Northumberland Fusiliers Numbering

[Muerrisch]

From memory the War Office belatedly realised that to use a soldier's battalion prefix in addition to his number  in casualty returns. newspapers etc would provide the enemy with Order of Battle intelligence.

This is yet another reason for the patchy use of prefixes.

 

And yet yet another was the fact that the Army Order introducing prefixes was permissive rather than mandatory, so that regiments could and did never ever adopt them

RWF is a fine example.

[tullybrone]

Hi,

 

Thanks for posting the name.

 

Yiur best bet might be to look on Ancestry and or FMP for NF soldiers with Regimental numbers around 65999. They will likely have a common military history during the early stages of their service.

 

Steve

[andrew p smith]

On 12/04/2019 at 20:39, Don Regiano said:

There is a MIC for Oliver Smith 65999 which shows he was awarded the VM and BWM and gives his KOYLI number as 62410.  It doesn't add anything further.

 

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1262/30850_A001448-01886?pid=4968730&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3Dfhb395%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3Dmedalrolls%26gsln%3Dsmith%26cp%3D0%26_F00061C3%3Dnorthumberland%20fusiliers%26_F00061C3_x%3D1%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26uidh%3Duc3%26redir%3Dfalse%26gss%3Dangs-d%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D83%26h%3D4968730%26recoff%3D%26fsk%3DMDs0OTs1MA-61--61-%26bsk%3D%26pgoff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D84&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fhb395&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

many thanks Don Regiano...

On 07/09/2014 at 13:37, tullybrone said:

Hi,

As a new member you may not be aware that the NF numbering expert on the forum is Graham Stewart. If your query is in relation to Tyneside Scottish or Tyneside Irish then forum member Tyneside Chinaman - AKA John Sheen - may also help.

Graham & John co authored the Tyneside Scottish book and John wrote the Tyneside Irish history book.

If you post your specific query I'm sure Graham or John will respond in due course.

Regards

Steve Y

Many Thanks for your reply Steve Y, i rec'd info from Graham today, sets me off on a right old paper trail!. thanks again.

[BGS]

I'm researching a man with a 23rd Northumberland Fusiliers number - Pte 40678 Edward Henry Buck.

His BW & V Medals were issued under his Duke of Wellington's number 11/19947. Medal Award Roll Piece 0714 states he served with 9th Battalion, then 23 N.Fus. Bradford Roll of Honour gives an enlistment date of 11 January 1916.

It looks like a draft of 9/Dukes men were posted to 23 N.Fus and given numbers 40676 to 40752 (29 of them). I have not found a Service Record for any of them - based on the death dates for those who did not survive, the transfer was made before 11 November 1916 (died of wounds Pte 40721 Fred Long). 

I presume they were replacements for 1 July 1916 casualties. I wonder if any experts on Northumberland Fusiliers can cast any light on when this group of men were transferred. The 9/West Riding War Diary records drafts of men arriving but none leaving the battalion. 

I would think there's a good chance BUCK was sent straight to 23 N. Fus., but I don't understand why his medals were issued under his Duke of Wellington's number.

 

[Don Regiano]

10 minutes ago, BGS said:

any experts on Northumberland Fusiliers

@Graham Stewartis an expert on NF.  I don't know if Graham can help.

[kenf48]

8 hours ago, BGS said:

I would think there's a good chance BUCK was sent straight to 23 N. Fus., but I don't understand why his medals were issued under his Duke of Wellington's number.

Medals were named to the first unit he was serving with when he entered a theatre of war. Therefore if posted to the 9th Dukes in the UK his record would show that was the unit he was with when he disembarked in France. A slip that often accompanied the BWM and VM read:-

"To avoid unnecessary correspondence, kindly note that the Regtl. particulars inscribed on the British War & Victory Medals are those held on first disembarkation in a theatre of war. The rank is the highest attained, PROVIDED IT WAS HELD IN A THEATRE OF WAR OR OVERSEAS PRIOR TO 11.11.18. Appointments such as L/Sgts., L/Cpl/, etc. are not inscribed on Medals, SPECIAL NOTE TO THOSE WHO SERVED IN RIFLE REGTS. 'Rifleman" is not inscribed on War Medals, "Pte." being the correct designation of this rank.'" (Their Caps)

From the Base Depot in France, in this case 34 IBD was at Etaples, men would often be posted elsewhere. The draft may have been split up but from what you have found it is unlikely they served ‘in the field’ with the 9th Dukes. Blocks of numbers were allocated by the Record Office in the respective UK commands for allocation in France. The issue of the medals was a huge logistical and administrative task with eight million being awarded after the war. The clerks compiling the lists would only be concerned with the unit a soldier was serving with as above. 

The medals were issued by the last unit as they had the address where they were to be sent.

The service record of 11/20116 Dransfield latterly  40687 23 NF (57625 York & Lancs) has survived and shows after two months atttached to 34 IBD before being posted as below:-

Image courtesy FMP

We don't know why these men spent nearly two months attached to the IBD, usually it was a couple of weeks.  It may be they were deployed as Army Troops in the field, or attached to an entrenching Battalion, but that is speculative.  A closer study of Dransfield's record shows he was employed on Base Details when he returned to France after his wounding and the Armistice before joining the Y & L, not relevant to your man but 'Base Details' is about the best we will get for them prior to the posting to the 23 NF.

 

[Graham Stewart]

Kenf48 has been lucky enough to find the records of one, of around 90 former West Ridings who were eventually transferred to the N.F., and as the document states Dransfield was initially "posted" to serve with the 9th West Ridings and embarked on the 9th July 1916 and on his arrival in France was sent to 34th Infantry Base Depot. Because of the serious number of casualties that both the Tyneside Scottish and Irish had taken on the 1st July, quite a few men from other units were "attached" to them in the field, and in this case, as of the 26th July 1916 and this would have included 11/19947 Pte Edward Henry Buck. The eventual transfer of these men into the N.F. taking place on the 9th September 1916.

Now the interesting fact is that once you get into the N.F. Medal Rolls, the actual "posting" of these West Ridings from the 11th Bn, into their 9th Battalion, seems to have actually taken place - ten pages of them. The MR then goes onto those transferred in from the Yorkshire Regt, before going back to the West Ridings. So we have to ask ourselves, is it just the way the paperwork has been completed that gives the impression that these men were stuck in 34 IBD, when infact they weren't and they had indeed joined the 9th Bn and were then attached to the 23rd Bn,N.F. on the 26th July and while "attached" transferred??

The War Diary of the 23rd reported that a draft of 109 men arrived on the 25th July, 175 men on the 26th July and 45 men on the 27th July.

Luckily I have the ACI 1499, which is referred to in the above paperwork and will hopefully have it attached later on for reading.

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, Graham Stewart said:

Kenf48 has been lucky enough to find the records of one,

Lucky - huh @Graham Stewart ,to paraphrase a WW2 General, "Stewart, I read your book" for which thank you

We stand on the shoulders of giants

bw

Ken

[Graham Stewart]

As promised.

[Graham Stewart]

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, Graham Stewart said:

As promised.

Thank you, Graham