shippingsteel Posted 7 February Share Posted 7 February 1 hour ago, Fromelles said: Is it known for sure whether any Mk I scabbards made their way into Aussie service prior to the war? Are there any Aussie marked examples? Not that I know of, and I have never seen any Australian marked as such. Given all the earliest P1907 bayonets that are Australian marked are British made in the latter half of 1909, predominantly late 1909, I wouldn't expect that they would have shipped with the older type Mk.I scabbards. Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromelles Posted 7 February Share Posted 7 February Cheers SS No, I wouldn't have thought so either, which is good as it means I don't need to get one. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 7 February Share Posted 7 February Hi Dan, I know what you are saying. When I started collecting, choosing to collect WW1 was severely criticized by many collectors - it was too modern. There were still plenty of vets alive (even a few Boer War vets still alive) and there was a lot of WW1 stuff available in the disposal stores. Despite that completing sets of P08 and P15 was hard, very hard. Helve carriers. I always have my doubts about these. I have never handled one I was confident with. The 1-inch back pack cargo straps are easily converted into these. I suspect that when the P15 was re-issued to the VDC in WW2 that the decision was made note to re-issue these but to send them to scrap. So that while everything else went back into war reserve until the early 70s, that these had already been destroyed. As for the water bottle carriers. These were thanks to a collector in Melbourne. He bought them at auction in the 70s and had about 8,000. He was always dribbling them onto the market. He died in 2021, and his estate was auctioned off in 2022. So that the market is absolutely flooded with them at the moment. Oddly enough, the press stud flap pouches, were all sold off in Perth and all trace back to a disposal store called the "Hardware Hood" for many years you could buy as many pairs as you wanted brand new for $8. A dealer in Sydney and another in Melbourne each purchased of 100 pairs (don't know what the paid but must have been less than the $8 retail price). Anyway, the supplies have now dwindled. Even so a bag of the 3-inch waist belts and 2-inch shoulder straps turned up at an auction last month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARTINRF Posted 7 February Share Posted 7 February ...the helve strap is marked 'OWEN 1917 AUSTRALIA' - have had it for a long time...will check out the Mk 1 scabbard for any markings.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARTINRF Posted 7 February Share Posted 7 February ...the back pack is marked 'AUSTRALIA C.G.H.F. 1917'...the side pack is marked 'AUSTRALIA C.G.H.F. 1916'...that 'Mills' style of thick, cotton weave I have seen before but only on the side packs so it may be that bolts of the cloth were sent over from the UK to be made in Australia for that sole purpose...otherwise it would appear that Australia did have the machines to manufacture it yet didn't produce the full infantry equipment in the cotton web until the time of introduction of the Pattern '36 Infantry Equipment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 7 February Share Posted 7 February They made the backpacks and haversacks in 3 different fabrics as well as making a haversack with an all leather back and buckle and fittings to accept the water bottle on the front like the early P08 haversacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromelles Posted 7 February Share Posted 7 February Unfortunately Martin, imo, your helve holder isn't the real deal, it just doesn't have the same feel about it when comparing it with the undoubtedly original example below. When I lived in Adelaide, we use to have a 'militaria night' once a week at the home of the owner of the below helve holder, they were proudly displayed along with bayonet, frog and helve on the wall. Since those days to now, I have never seen another example, nor have I ever heard of another out there! I'm hopeful the odd one or two must still exist...surely! With reference to your haversack, I was referring to yours being the mounded pattern, yours obviously need to have the tabs and buckles to allow it to be worn on the back. Dan Images provided by Karkee Web Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 7 February Share Posted 7 February (edited) A few years ago I happened on 5 or 6 Australia pattern water bottle cradles. They varied quite considerably in colour (from tan to almost greenish leather) I'll post a picture or two later. I held onto them thinking I might run across other components but in the intervening years the only parts I have seen in the US was a set of ammunition carriers which were way out of my price range. It's nice to see the set and components illustrated here. Chris (EDIT - I just realised I posted the markings on these at the start of this thread -- and it seems like the "few years" was a decade!) Edited 7 February by 4thGordons addition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARTINRF Posted 7 February Share Posted 7 February ...the Mk. 1 scabbard has a number on the throat but there is nothing distinguishing it as being used by the AMF/CMF/AIF - however. all of the bayonets, however do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battle of loos Posted 7 February Share Posted 7 February Good evening Here's my Australian water bottle holder : stamps : BONNEY MAKER BRISBANE 1916 /I\ AC or O regards michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 8 February Share Posted 8 February Here are mine - showing the variation in colour and some of the markings: these were just pics I had on file Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARTINRF Posted 8 February Share Posted 8 February ...as for the 'OWEN 1917' helve carrier, the rivet construction upon it matches all of the many, many other construction points throughout the Infantry Equipment Australian Pattern 1915 - I am not convinced that it could not have possibly been the case that more than one style of helve carrier was made...the images of the example made in South Australia shows another excellent example - the construction of which does seem to match that of the (British) Infantry Equipment Pattern 1914...(8[ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromelles Posted 8 February Share Posted 8 February 46 minutes ago, MARTINRF said: ...as for the 'OWEN 1917' helve carrier, the rivet construction upon it matches all of the many, many other construction points throughout the Infantry Equipment Australian Pattern 1915 - I am not convinced that it could not have possibly been the case that more than one style of helve carrier was made...the images of the example made in South Australia shows another excellent example - the construction of which does seem to match that of the (British) Infantry Equipment Pattern 1914...(8[ The helve holde I believe, was made at the CGHF as the Broad Arrow 'S' acceptance stamp is commonly seen on their stuff. The CMF SA is where it was issued. I can accept not every piece of equipment were constructed in exactly the same way, however even when comparing other pieces that used split rivets (the above water bottle carriers are good examples) they just aren't the same, the leather on the bottom loop of your example looks to have been stretched out of shape by the rivets. Bottom line is, my opinion is only my opinion, if you're happy with it then that's all that matters. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARTINRF Posted 8 February Share Posted 8 February ...I know where/when I obtained the helve carrier - it was not from any dealer, nor from anywhere online...also I know just what other WW1 items it was found with over here in the UK, but no-one at the time seemed to realise what it was for when I came across it...I started collecting militaria back in 1975 - when I was newly stationed at a Melbourne R.A.A.F. base - taking a shine to all things A.I.F., but even that old ironmongers at the Spencer Street end of Collins Street never had that much '15 pattern equipment other than packs and straps which were not much good even for civilian use without the broad belt...the helve holder was impossible to secure as far back as then...a still-at-school Rod Bellars went through that place like a dose of salts - the two old brothers who ran it did not like you rummaging about without permission - and even he couldn't find anything else to sell on in his burgeoning business, either...the ammunition pouches can fetch £400 in the UK - a quite incomplete set went for auction last December...I have had two other sets over the years but neither was with the helve holder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 8 February Share Posted 8 February 4 hours ago, MARTINRF said: that old ironmongers at the Spencer Street end of Collins Street I think you mean "Hudsons Stores" in Little Bourke Street. It was run by two elderly brothers. I cannot remember their names at present. They ran the shop forever and had a couple of warehouses, one at Richmond and I never went to the other. They sold the city shop in the late 80s. They had mountains of WW1 kit. D-mess tins by the thousand. Crates of e-tool handles, but only about 1/20 were dated. Rod Bellars used to go in and buy all the dated ones. They were all new out of the original crates so you knew they were WW1 just you ended up having to settle for undated ones as they would not bring a new crate to the shop until they had cleared most of the stock. There were piles of RA1904 draught harness, mountains of it. They specialized in doing up pack saddles, the leather board pads would have the fabric rotten so they would cut the old fabric off and sew down a new sheet of canvas and restuff them. The workmanship was absolutely abysmal. They used to cut the bottom 12-inches off rifle buckets and sell them to butchers as knife holsters. Even in the 70s collectors were paying more for a good rifle bucket than they would sell the knife holster for. For P08/15 they had the backpacks and haversacks, and small quantities of bayonet frogs. They sold me one only frog when I went in 1977 and when I went back in 1979, they remembered me and would not sell me a second as they had already sold me one. Whilst in Melbourne in 1977 one of the disposal stores had a bin with a couple of cubic metres of P08/15 haversacks with P08 shoulder straps. They were used but good condition. $2 each. When I went in 1979 to get more, they were all gone. School kids all over Melbourne were using them so they will probably turn up in Melbourne flea markets for years to come. The pouches with stud flaps all came from Adelaide, the pouches with press stud flaps from Perth (Hardware Hood). The belts always appeared in small quantities. I believe that they came from one of the rural disposal stores in NSW. I suspect Toolies in Albury but never saw them there. The 2-inch shoulder straps and e-tool carriers were near impossible to find and then flooded the market in the early 80s. I never knew where they came from. Similarly the 1-inch straps came in quantity in the early 80s but never as a flood. Most seem to have passed through the hands of a theatrical armourer named Bob Colby. (long story about this gent, this is not the place to discuss). So through the 70s and early 80s - there was plenty available of most of the kit. The frogs and 1-inch straps were a problem and the helve carrier was always near impossible. Odd bits like the holsters, early pouches with the front opening flap and mouse-trap flap pouches were always difficult to obtain. A bundle of P08/15 waist belts and shoulder straps sold at auction in Melbourne last month. 4 or 5 x 3-inch belts and 2 x 2-inch straps and the P08/15 pistol holster. Also some bits of sam-browne. AUD$555 + 16.5% buyers premium. Frankly I considered it cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 9 February Share Posted 9 February 4 hours ago, Chasemuseum said: "Hudsons Stores" in Little Bourke Street. It was run by two elderly brothers. Jack and Alex Pearce my grey matter is not what it used to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARTINRF Posted 9 February Share Posted 9 February ...I managed to get hold of a few examples of Australian marked/dated entrenching helves, but it wasn't from Hudsons Stores as I recall - Aussie Disposals, down at the Yarra River end of Russell Street, used to have out a few used examples from time to time - Rod mustn't have come down from his parents house up in the Dandenongs to trawl through there before I did...going slightly off-topic, but the P08 Infantry web equipment was another mountain-to-climb when trying to complete a set...the left hand ammunition pouches, for some reason, as well as the narrow pack straps and, of course, the helve holder were the hardest items to secure...anything that had been coated in 'blanco' was either avoided altogether or sold at much reduced prices...Mike Warwick was trading out of a stout brick shed beside his house at that time but even he didn't have very much along those lines for sale - nor when he first set up a shop in Camberwell...the Melbourne Gun Show, then held at the Coburn Town Hall, was one other source for bits and pieces but it still had more guns on offer than militaria... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 9 February Share Posted 9 February Took me years to get my first left side P08 pouch. Then in the mid 80s I got a work transfer to USA and they were readily available. Great War Militaria had bought a couple of pallets of P08 pouches from one of the Hollywood props/costume companies. Absolutely wonderful people to deal with. Not sure what has happened to them. The business seems to have folded a few years ago. Hope I am wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battle of loos Posted 9 February Share Posted 9 February good morning, here is my Australian Bandolier Equipment - Pattern 1903 - 50 round : stamp : in the litle circle ??? AUSTRALIA - GHF/I\ michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromelles Posted 9 February Share Posted 9 February 1 hour ago, battle of loos said: stamp : in the litle circle ??? AUSTRALIA - GHF/I\ michel Michel, Can't help with the smaller mark, it's just too faint, however the other stamp is slightly mis-stamped but is actually C.G.H.F. (Commonwealth Government Harness Factory), this factory was located in Clifton Hill, Melbourne Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battle of loos Posted 9 February Share Posted 9 February good evening, thanks for the explanation and the picture. regards michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMHM Posted 13 February Share Posted 13 February On 09/02/2024 at 06:02, Chasemuseum said: Took me years to get my first left side P08 pouch. Then in the mid 80s I got a work transfer to USA and they were readily available. Great War Militaria had bought a couple of pallets of P08 pouches from one of the Hollywood props/costume companies. Absolutely wonderful people to deal with. Not sure what has happened to them. The business seems to have folded a few years ago. Hope I am wrong. Great War Militaria is still somewhat in business though they are mostly done. The Great War Association has taken over operations at Newville PA. where the largest Great War events in the U.S. are held annually. Basically the militaria guys are just selling off whats left of the old shop and going into retirement as far as I know. You are correct though, they had the most amazing stuff over the years! Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 16 February Share Posted 16 February Not directly related but I thought I would take advantage of the experts in things Australian being present to ask. I have had this intrenching tool for 20years and I believe I have asked about it on here previously but can't find it now and don't recall a definitive result It is marked ?WN & SON 1917 ??LBOURNE (presumably Melbourne) It is also stamped AUSTRALIA on the pick blade. As you can see it is two piece rivetted construction (blade is separate) - it is also significantly smaller than a standard tool (although it may have been cut/ground down given the way the manufacturer's mark is slightly cut off. Is this a simple variation in construction of a standard tool or is it deliberately smaller - any insights appreciated Couple of poor photos below - I rediscovered it when I was digging out some bits of kit for a talk tomorrow. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 17 February Share Posted 17 February 2 hours ago, 4thGordons said: ...I have had this intrenching tool for 20years and I believe I have asked about it on here previously but can't find it now and don't recall a definitive result... Your old thread is here ;-) As mentioned previously it's a cut-down version of a known Australian variation made by "Brown & Son" of "Melbourne": http://karkeeweb.com/patterns/1908/1908_sirhind_tool.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 17 February Share Posted 17 February (edited) Thanks! @Andrew Upton i searched and searched….. as you were! Thanks Chris Edited 17 February by 4thGordons correct tag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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