Leather "Infantry Equipment, Australian Pattern"

[trajan]

I have opened this thread to stimulate dialogue and to learn more about this little-known WW1 leather ‘webbing’ equipment. My interest in this grew from the discussions associated with what one member believed to be a rare 'sleeper' combination of an Australian-issued bayonet and scabbard with a British P.1914 leather frog (see: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=216389&hl= ). As the frog has a SOS mark, then that full set is evidently a ‘marriage’, put together post 1921, which is when P.1914 frogs began to be withdrawn from service use by all units except for a scant few. However, in the course of the developing debate about the use of P.1914 equipment by Australian troops in WW1 attention was drawn to the existence of a brown leather P.1914-style frog that formed part of the little known Leather Infantry Equipment, Australian Pattern. Thus the idea of starting this thread, to see if other GWF members can contribute to the data bank on this infantry equipment.

Generally speaking, a bit of what can be learnt from that often despised ‘bookish learnin’ pus Karkee suggests that this equipment pattern was based on the P.1908 webbing equipment, although the exact date of its introduction into service seems to be unknown (it seems that the AWM call it 'Pattern 1915' for the sake of convenience / common usage). In particular, the (?)first version of the leather Infantry Equipment, Australian Pattern bayonet frog was a clear copy in leather of the P.1908 one, down to the helve strap, although the earliest recorded surviving dated example of one of these was made in 1915. However, already by 1910, a second pattern bayonet frog had been introduced, based on the P.1914 example, but with certain specific differences: no helve strap; a frog strap/loop the same width as the frog proper; and rivets above the retaining strap-and-buckle (for discussion and photographs see: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=216389&hl= ). Interestingly enough, although the evidence is that the Australian army serving in (at the very least) Europe discarded this leather Infantry Equipment, Australian Pattern in favour of standard P.1908 webbing equipment for WW1 field service, it continued in service use in Australia until WW2, the evidence for this coming in the form of leather bayonet frogs of the Infantry Equipment, Australian Pattern that were newly made in 1941, 1942, and 1943! That aside, though, the details of this equipment are clearly little known, even in Australia, so, anyone out there with more information or examples of the leather Infantry Equipment, Australian Pattern and in particular its two varieties of bayonet frog?

Trajan

[trajan]

I have managed to put together from various sources some of the official markings, etc., to be found on this equipment to help in its identification.

Broadly speaking, as noted above, the leather Infantry Equipment, Australian Pattern was modelled on the P.1908 webbing, but there are variations, and some of the various pieces might be confused with P.1904 GB equipment, hence the perceived need for this list - which is not necessarily exhaustive!

As usual, I am happy to receive any informed (and polite!) comments and corrections, so making this thread of better use to others.

OFFICIAL PROPERTY / APPROVAL STAMPS

A.A.O.D. – Australian Army Ordnance Department

A.M.F. / S.A. – Australian Military Forces South Australia

CMF SA - Commonwealth Military Forces or Citizen Militia Force South Australia

DATED MAKER MARKS AND EQUIPMENT

BONNEY / MAKER / BRISBANE 1916. Entrenching tool carrier; braces

C.G.H.F. 1912. (Commonwealth Government Harness Factory). Second pattern frog (no helve carrier)

C.G.H.F. 1915. Haversack

C.G.H.F. 1915 or 1916. Haversack

C.G.H.F. 1916. Pack

C.G.H.F. 1917. Pack

HOLDEN & FROST 1915. Second pattern frog (no helve carrier)

HOLDEN AND FROST 1916. Entrenching tool carrier

GEO. PIZZEY & SONS LTD. FITZROY 1915. First pattern frog (with helve holder)

TELFORD BROS 1916. Straps

J.J.WEEKS 1910 SYDNEY. Second pattern frog (no helve carrier)

UNDATED MAKER MARKS (these could belong anywhere between circa 1910 and 1943, but I suspect are early rather than late; the C.G.H.F. concern at least stopped production in the late 1920’s)

C.G.H.F. Entrenching tool carrier

C.G.H.F. / AUSTRALIA. Pistol case/holster

EC. Water bottle carrier

EW. Braces

HD. Braces

JH. Cartridge carrier

[trajan]

New maker identified

BECKERS Brisbane 1916. Water bottle carrier.

Also, note that C.G.H.F. (Commonwealth Government Harness Factory) were located in Clifton Hill, Victoria.

And last but not least (I hope!), I have located a source that states that in WW2, this leather Infantry Equipment, Australian Pattern was 'commonly' used by Australian Home Defence units, by the Papuan Infantry Battalion, and by the Papuan Constabulary. No references given and no indication as to whether this was newly-made or re-issued WW1-period leather Infantry Equipment, Australian Pattern

Trajan

[trajan]

Just located these other GWF threads on this equipment - found through Google not through GWF search... (Maybe I misspelt something?)

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=172989

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=181082

[Sepoy]

Here is a photo showing the leather equipment being worn.

Sepoy

[trajan]

Thanks Sepoy!

Looks to me like a first pattern frog but with helve carrier removed? And possibly even a round-stud on the scabbard?

My understanding is, from what I have learnt from my Aussie friends, that there is a 'fair amount' (relatively speaking!) of this stuff still around down under and in the islands to the north, which would be only natural given its continued use into WW2.

Trajan

[trajan]

Just spotted this. An 'AUSTRALIA' 'JH' marked cartridge carrier that seems to be dated 1918, although I cannot confirm that - see: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Australia-WW1-1918-Pattern-Leather-Personal-Equipment-Ammunition-Pouch-/111131353088

[trajan]

Stimulated by Sepoy's encouraging response I have managed to locate a couple more photographs of interest, shown here for reference / research pursposes.

This first one is that well-known AWM image, of Trooper SJ Arbuthnot, 8th ALH: see http://www.lighthorse.org.au/images-content/Trooper%20SJ%20Arbuthnot%208thALH.bmp/view. Note that he has a HQ bayonet and this is not for show as one can see the top of the frog protruding above his belt (looks to be an Australian pattern one).

The second is also from the Australian Light Horse Association and shows "Palestine Marching[sic] Order - WW 1": http://www.lighthorse.org.au/resources/equipment-images/palestine-marching-order-ww1/1439_3.jpg/image_view_fullscreen. Note that the leading trooper has a bayonet in what I think is a leather 2nd pattern frog, with the strap and no helve carrier - there are no rivets visible, as would be the case if this was an example of SS's much desired photographic evidence for a P.1914 frog being used!

[Fromelles]

Post 5 shows a Pattern 15 (Infantry Equipment, Australian Pattern), which I'm sure would have the helve strap still attached, just hidden behind the bayonet.

Whereas post 8, which are also an Australian pattern aren't Pattern 15 and where around from well before the war, and never manufactured with a helve strap. I don't know its official nomenclature nor when it was first introduced, but feel it has been about since the introduction of the 07 bayonet and was issued with the Pattern 03 equipment. This is the type still being manufactured in WW2.

I'll start looking in what references I have to see what I can dig up.

Dan

[trajan]

I'll start looking in what references I have to see what I can dig up.

Dan

Thanks Dan!

This is just a side interest of mine but what intrigued me to begin with is that there is apparently no validity to the commonly used term "Australian Pattern (19)15"! This, at least, was the stated opinion of the AWM a few years back, so I'd be interested to see if you can come up with anything more recent.

If you look at my post 2 though, you'll see that this equipment was certainly being made by 1910, and I reckon (gut feeling only) that it was introduced soon after the 1908 pattern - it does directly copy much if not all of the 1908 webbing style.

Julian

[Fromelles]

Julian,

The only pieces of equipment you've listed that are pre 15 dated are the frogs which are not part of the Pattern 15 equipment. The karkee web site states that there may have been developemental work on this equipment as early as 1912 but there is nothing definite. To date there hasn't yet been a piece of equipment come to light with a pre 15 date.

You're quite right about there being no validity to the term Pattern 15, but it has been adopted here as the norm so I run with it.

The search continues ....

Dan

[trajan]

Julian,

The only pieces of equipment you've listed that are pre 15 dated are the frogs which are not part of the Pattern 15 equipment. The karkee web site states that there may have been developemental work on this equipment as early as 1912 but there is nothing definite. To date there hasn't yet been a piece of equipment come to light with a pre 15 date.

You're quite right about there being no validity to the term Pattern 15, but it has been adopted here as the norm so I run with it.

The search continues ....

Dan

Hi Dan,

I follow you on the second point - on which note I think I may have been mistaken on Carter having been the guy who coined the term '1915 pattern': I wonder who was?

On the other hand, Carter was certainly confident that the bayonet frog first pattern with helve strap was part of this leather copy of the Mills 1908 WE, and so I have followed him there. Off hand, without e-mailing Rog, I think that is the karkee view as well.

Julian

[4thGordons]

I have managed to put together from various sources some of the official markings, etc., to be found on this equipment to help in its identification.

Broadly speaking, as noted above, the leather Infantry Equipment, Australian Pattern was modelled on the P.1908 webbing, but there are variations, and some of the various pieces might be confused with P.1904 GB equipment, hence the perceived need for this list - which is not necessarily exhaustive!

As usual, I am happy to receive any informed (and polite!) comments and corrections, so making this thread of better use to others.

OFFICIAL PROPERTY / APPROVAL STAMPS

A.A.O.D. – Australian Army Ordnance Department

A.M.F. / S.A. – Australian Military Forces South Australia

CMF SA - Commonwealth Military Forces or Citizen Militia Force South Australia

DATED MAKER MARKS AND EQUIPMENT

BONNEY / MAKER / BRISBANE 1916. Entrenching tool carrier; braces

C.G.H.F. 1912. (Commonwealth Government Harness Factory). Second pattern frog (no helve carrier)

C.G.H.F. 1915. Haversack

C.G.H.F. 1915 or 1916. Haversack

C.G.H.F. 1916. Pack

C.G.H.F. 1917. Pack

HOLDEN & FROST 1915. Second pattern frog (no helve carrier)

HOLDEN AND FROST 1916. Entrenching tool carrier

GEO. PIZZEY & SONS LTD. FITZROY 1915. First pattern frog (with helve holder)

TELFORD BROS 1916. Straps

J.J.WEEKS 1910 SYDNEY. Second pattern frog (no helve carrier)

UNDATED MAKER MARKS (these could belong anywhere between circa 1910 and 1943, but I suspect are early rather than late; the C.G.H.F. concern at least stopped production in the late 1920’s)

C.G.H.F. Entrenching tool carrier

C.G.H.F. / AUSTRALIA. Pistol case/holster

EC. Water bottle carrier

EW. Braces

HD. Braces

JH. Cartridge carrier

Just a couple to add

I have

CGHF waterbottle carrier (also stamper AR^ and Australia on opposite hanger to maker)

CGHF waterbottle carrier (also stamped S^ and Australia on opposite hanger to maker)

waterbottle carrier (stamped only S^ on opposite hanger to maker)

^ = broad arrow

Chris

[Fromelles]

Julian,

The only difference between the frogs of the Infantry Equipment, Australian Pattern is that the first type didn't have holes punched into the helve strap whereas the second type did. This was done to stop the helve holder from sliding off. Other than that there is no difference. There are some good images of this frog on the Karkee Web site.

There is a completely different frog (‘Commonwealth Pattern’) made for use with the 07 bayonet that was being issued well before the introduction of the Infantry Equipment, Australian Pattern that the Pattern 14 frog does resemble and was supplied to those issued 07 bayonets and Pattern 03 equipment. It is not an Infantry Equipment, Australian Pattern frog Mk II, minus the rear helve strap and with an additional vertical securing strap and buckle at the front.

Karkee Web doesn’t have an image of the ‘Commonwealth Pattern’ frog which should sit in the - Bandolier Equipment, Pattern 1903 - Associated Equipment - section of their site; maybe they aren’t aware of its existence.

I’m still hunting for my frogs.

Dan

[trajan]

Thanks again Dan,

Well, if nowt else, this subject is really up and running, which is what I had hoped for, and we are all leaning new things!

Travelling all day today (Saturday) and will try to catch up tomorrow.

Best,

Julian

[Waddell]

Trajan,

I have a CGHF horse shoe case marked S, which according to the AWM indicates that it is surplus. There are also some bayonet frogs visible in the collection-

http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/REL27602.005/?image=2#display-image

http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/REL26333.006/

I vaguely recall on the old Light horse forum several years ago that there was an Australian member gathering information about this subject for a book. Unfortunately those threads are hard to find now.

Scott

[trajan]

I vaguely recall on the old Light horse forum several years ago that there was an Australian member gathering information about this subject for a book. Unfortunately those threads are hard to find now.

Thanks Scott,

Like I said before, clearly a lot needs to be done on this subject before we all accept the accepted view. I will go along with Dan above (post 15) that the commonly accepted term for all this pattern 1915 equipment but I would like to see or be able to refer to something that is 'categorical' rather than hearsay. I know, I am being pedantic, but correct terminology is required...

By the by, found this interesting page dating back to 2008, which might be related to what you are referring to about old threads: http://militarianz.freeforums.org/ww1-australian-pattern-leather-infantry-equipment-t2502.html

I must stress, by the way, I claim no knowledge or experience in this field - I am just interested in finding out what is and what is not known!

Julian

[trajan]

Julian,

The only difference between the frogs of the Infantry Equipment, Australian Pattern is that the first type didn't have holes punched into the helve strap whereas the second type did. This was done to stop the helve holder from sliding off. Other than that there is no difference. There are some good images of this frog on the Karkee Web site.

There is a completely different frog (‘Commonwealth Pattern’) made for use with the 07 bayonet that was being issued well before the introduction of the Infantry Equipment, Australian Pattern that the Pattern 14 frog does resemble and was supplied to those issued 07 bayonets and Pattern 03 equipment. It is not an Infantry Equipment, Australian Pattern frog Mk II, minus the rear helve strap and with an additional vertical securing strap and buckle at the front.

Karkee Web doesn’t have an image of the ‘Commonwealth Pattern’ frog which should sit in the - Bandolier Equipment, Pattern 1903 - Associated Equipment - section of their site; maybe they aren’t aware of its existence.

I’m still hunting for my frogs.

Dan

Dan, Rog at Karkee is always interested in and welcomes new stuff as are and do his A/NZ contacts, so do forward any information you have if you think they don't have the same. They are pretty much on-the-ball enthusiasts (as most of us on GWF are!) and I often pass stuff on to them - a small return for the help they have given me with bits and pieces!

Now, if you have a 1st pattern "Australian P.15" frog with helve carrier with no holes, wow! Let's see it! Find it! C'mon - get those frogs out and astonish (and please) us all!!!

TTFN,

Julian

[Fromelles]

Now, if you have a 1st pattern "Australian P.15" frog with helve carrier with no holes, wow! Let's see it! Find it! C'mon - get those frogs out and astonish (and please) us all!!!

Hi Julian,

The 'first' type of P-15 frog is already there for everyone to see - http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1915/1915_equipment_carriers.html - top image.

Dan

[trajan]

Thanks dan,

In the bustle and hassle of transfers, packing and unpacking, travelling, etc., I had forgotten that one...

Now, how's about this one, a sword frog and shoulder strap, marked 'ALH/43' - http://www.cmmilitaryantiques.com/gallery.php?arid=5995

Maker-marked or official-marked to the 'Australian Light Horse'? If so, as late as (19)43? As I understand it, relying entirely on Bou's Light Horse: A History of Australia's Mounted Arm, Chapter 9, there were still some mounted units of the ALH as late as 1944, and these were still provided with the sword - can you clarify / add / correct?

Julian

[trajan]

And here's a nice new one! A P.1903 - 90 Round Bandolier, maker-marked HOLDEN & FROST 1915, unit marked for B Squadron 12 Light Horse Regiment, AIF!

See: http://aif-online-museum.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/equi001-pattern-1903-90-round-bandolier.html

Trajan

[Fromelles]

On 18/09/2014 at 18:09, TRAJAN said:

Now, how's about this one, a sword frog and shoulder strap, marked 'ALH/43' - http://www.cmmilitaryantiques.com/gallery.php?arid=5995

Maker-marked or official-marked to the 'Australian Light Horse'? If so, as late as (19)43? As I understand it, relying entirely on Bou's Light Horse: A History of Australia's Mounted Arm, Chapter 9, there were still some mounted units of the ALH as late as 1944, and these were still provided with the sword - can you clarify / add / correct?

Trajan

According to - Standing Orders for Equipment for the Commonwealth Military Forces - Part 1 - General (1909) - these SO include amendments up to and including 1914

• O.S. = Ordnance Store

In part AIF Orders No.2, para 8.b 'Equipment' (26 Aug 14) states -

So, as you can see neither set of orders covers the markings on this frog, which I suspect is earlier rather that later. Australia didn't have 43 Regiments of LH before during or after any of the wars, so it's not the unit. If I had to make a call I'd say the 43 may relate to the corresponding weapon number.

The jury is still out I'm afraid.

Dan

Edited 21 August , 2022 by Fromelles
Replaced transcribed entries with screenshots

[trajan]

... The jury is still out I'm afraid.

So it may be, but you are filling in some very important gaps here and so many thanks! Have you passed any of this on to Rog at Karkee? If not, would you mind if I do so?

Julian

[Fromelles]

Have you passed any of this on to Rog at Karkee? If not, would you mind if I do so?

Julian

Julian,

I've sent plenty of photos of items and as well as info that aren't on their site as well better examples of items that are, but none of it has ever been added. If you want to send it, please be my guest.

Dan

[trajan]

Julian,

I've sent plenty of photos of items and as well as info that aren't on their site as well better examples of items that are, but none of it has ever been added. If you want to send it, please be my guest.

Dan

Will do. I know they are a bit slow - they still haven't posted the photo of a strange HG frog I sent to them three years back although they did respond almost immediately with production, etc., details!