Guest brewer Posted 24 August , 2014 Share Posted 24 August , 2014 hello all. I am trying to get some further information on us armement during world war 1. Many years ago I read in a book about guns that when the US got involved they also brought the use of Shotguns to the trenches. The book mentioned that they were never really intended to be used in active battle more for support troops and guarding prisoners but still found their way to the front lines. The book further mentioned that the troops used a specific type of shells loaded with scrap metal bits. Apparently the jagged edges of the metal caused quite horrific injuries. which lead the Germans to protest the use of both weapons and ammo to the Geneva Convention. The specific ammo has apparently been prohibited ever since then. the use of the shotgun however remained Through All my googling I can find various sources that confirm the part of the shotgun but no further evidence of the ammo part of the story. Does anybody have further information on this story or sources where I might be able to find confirmation of this story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 24 August , 2014 Share Posted 24 August , 2014 Welcome I suspect that if you use the forum search facility you'll probably find all you need. To start http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=112832#entry1074447 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 24 August , 2014 Share Posted 24 August , 2014 hello all. I am trying to get some further information on us armement during world war 1. Many years ago I read in a book about guns that when the US got involved they also brought the use of Shotguns to the trenches. The book mentioned that they were never really intended to be used in active battle more for support troops and guarding prisoners but still found their way to the front lines. The book further mentioned that the troops used a specific type of shells loaded with scrap metal bits. Apparently the jagged edges of the metal caused quite horrific injuries. which lead the Germans to protest the use of both weapons and ammo to the Geneva Convention. The specific ammo has apparently been prohibited ever since then. the use of the shotgun however remained Through All my googling I can find various sources that confirm the part of the shotgun but no further evidence of the ammo part of the story. Does anybody have further information on this story or sources where I might be able to find confirmation of this story Welcome to the Forum. Here is some information which may help you, and it refers the the U.S. Army's Trench Gun rounds being filled with antimony hardened 00 buckshot. Also attached is a photograph of some of these shells. " The modern concept of the combat shotgun was fully developed by the American Expeditionary Forces during World War I. The Trench Gun, as it was called, was a short-barreled pump action shotgun loaded with 6 rounds containing antimony hardened 00 buckshot, and equipped with a bayonet. The M1897 andM1912 also could be slam fired: the weapon having no trigger disconnector, shells could be fired one after the other simply by working the slide if the trigger was held down. When fighting within a trench, the shorter shotgun could be rapidly turned and fired in both directions along the trench axis. The shotguns elicited a diplomatic protest from the German government, claiming the shotguns caused excessive injury, and that any troops found in possession of them would be subject to execution. The US Government rejected the claims, and threatened reprisals in kind if any US troops were executed for possession of a shotgun. " Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin_sole Posted 24 August , 2014 Share Posted 24 August , 2014 The shotguns elicited a diplomatic protest from the German government, claiming the shotguns caused excessive injury As opposed to Flammenwerfer, mustard gas and HE shells - which caused no excessive injury? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 24 August , 2014 Share Posted 24 August , 2014 The standard "Trench Broom" was a Winchester Model 1897 pump action gun, 18" barrel 5-round magazine, with a pierced heat shield over the breech area and modified to allow a 1917 bayonet to be fitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 24 August , 2014 Share Posted 24 August , 2014 The use of irregular scrap would produce inconsistent and inaccurate shot patterns, and be damaging to bores. It would also be less effective. I can only think the idea was the product of the imagination of someone with little practical knowledge - and if such rounds ever actually existed, they were probably made by inexperienced troops fired up by such imaginings. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dman Posted 24 August , 2014 Share Posted 24 August , 2014 Ammunition used by US military shotguns was standard hardened lead 9 pellet 00 buckshot Was effective out to about 50 meters before pattern spread out too far. As stated by others scrap would give an erratic pattern and scour the barrel Great favorite on clearing out German trench systems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 25 August , 2014 Share Posted 25 August , 2014 Also used during WW1, was the 1897 Winchester riot gun which did not have the ventilated cover and bayonet boss, a favorite of Military Police, some may have found their way into the front lines. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dman Posted 25 August , 2014 Share Posted 25 August , 2014 Actually the 1897 was in use before WW I - during Philipines Inserrection Army needed weapon to stop charging Moro Juramentado (Oath takers, the 1900 equivalent of suicide bomber) who would charge into US units trying to take out as many soldiers as possible with their kris and bolo before being shot dead. Army found that Krag rifles and Colt .38 pistols lacked stopping power to halt suicide charges General John "Black Jack" Pershing discovered that shotguns particularly the Winchester 1897 were effective at stopping Moros Used them on patrols and in outposts to seal off Moro controlled territory including their last stand in an ancient volcano crater. Pershing surrounded it with men armed with shotguns until Moros starved out. When Pershing became CO of American Expeditionary Force had shotguns included in their TOE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loader Posted 25 August , 2014 Share Posted 25 August , 2014 I think a US soldier earned the Medal Of Honor using a shotgun to clean out a section of trench. It was very effective in a trench. Yes, the Germans protested the use of the weapon. Certainly a real cruel weapon that eclipsed the flamethrower & gas! Guess it depends on who's using it on who/whom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenneth505 Posted 25 August , 2014 Share Posted 25 August , 2014 So then the consensus is that shotguns weren't in use before US troops? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 25 August , 2014 Share Posted 25 August , 2014 So then the consensus is that shotguns weren't in use before US troops? Not officially. Sawn off SMLEs were used in some trench fighting and its possible that the odd sawn off shotgun found its way onto raids. At sea large bore fowling pieces (shot guns) had a long tradition of being useful in dealing with boarders (mainly pirates) and the like. Defoe mentions this in a number of his books Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 25 August , 2014 Share Posted 25 August , 2014 Not officially. Sawn off SMLEs were used in some trench fighting I'd like to see some refence to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dman Posted 25 August , 2014 Share Posted 25 August , 2014 I think a US soldier earned the Medal Of Honor using a shotgun to clean out a section of trench. It was very effective in a trench. SGT Fred Lloyd found his unit stopped by platoon of Germans holed up in French village. Lloyd took his 1897, stuffed pockets with shells and set off. For next hour, until collapsed from exhaustion, flushed out the Germans from the village Was awarded Distinguished Service Cross (second to Medal Honor) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 25 August , 2014 Share Posted 25 August , 2014 Sawn off SMLEs were used in some trench fighting ... Examples of these certainly exist in some museums and photos have been posted on the forum in the past. They are generally claimed to have been made and used for fighting underground in mine galleries, but no-one seems to have come up with convincing reasons why anyone would go to the trouble when hand-guns were readily available. I believe it has been suggested that a more likely use was for firing blanks to initiate or propel various kinds of improvised weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 25 August , 2014 Share Posted 25 August , 2014 https://38.media.tumblr.com/8bd3c215273ef6a7c3e88f4e4fb16d89/tumblr_n8twf93FCJ1rwjpnyo2_500.jpg http://31.media.tumblr.com/d66060109894a3dc926f28c46afac1d1/tumblr_n21aaydYTK1tp4dyyo1_500.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 25 August , 2014 Share Posted 25 August , 2014 Examples of these certainly exist in some museums and photos have been posted on the forum in the past. They are generally claimed to have been made and used for fighting underground in mine galleries, but no-one seems to have come up with convincing reasons why anyone would go to the trouble when hand-guns were readily available. Possibly because they could hold ten rounds as opposed to five or six. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 25 August , 2014 Share Posted 25 August , 2014 Advantages: 10 rounds Disadvantages: Various including lack of sights, recoil, difficulty of re-cocking, inaccuracy (due to barrel length), noise, excessive flash. Are there any first hand accounts of the use of cut down rifles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 25 August , 2014 Share Posted 25 August , 2014 Advantages: 10 rounds Disadvantages: Various including lack of sights, recoil, difficulty of re-cocking, inaccuracy (due to barrel length), noise, excessive flash. Are there any first hand accounts of the use of cut down rifles? Additional advantage Uses the rounds you've been issued with. Massive stopping power at close quarters Inaccuracy - probably no more than a pistol (especially if you're not used to one) and irrelevant (as is lack of sights) in close quarters fighting. I can see that noise might be a problem in such a quiet environment And were pistols that available to ORs - officers had to buy theirs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 25 August , 2014 Share Posted 25 August , 2014 It would be significantly less accurate and less consistent than a pistol. And please ditch the sarcasm Cent, it does the forum and its members no favours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 25 August , 2014 Share Posted 25 August , 2014 It would be significantly less accurate and less consistent than a pistol. And please ditch the sarcasm Cent, it does the forum and its members no favours. Speak for yourself Apparently there is a reference to use of cut down rifles in the Imperial War Museum Review No.6, pages 4-15 in an article by Bryn Hammond - Professionals and specialists: military mining on the Western Front Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 25 August , 2014 Share Posted 25 August , 2014 But post #12 doesn't talk about mines, it specifically mentions trench fighting. Where is there any evidence to support such use of cut down SMLEs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 25 August , 2014 Share Posted 25 August , 2014 (edited) Examples of these certainly exist in some museums and photos have been posted on the forum in the past. They are generally claimed to have been made and used for fighting underground in mine galleries, but no-one seems to have come up with convincing reasons why anyone would go to the trouble when hand-guns were readily available. I believe it has been suggested that a more likely use was for firing blanks to initiate or propel various kinds of improvised weapons. The use of these cut-down rifles in the confines of a tunnel has been debunked many times over the years. Edited 25 August , 2014 by Beerhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 25 August , 2014 Share Posted 25 August , 2014 The use of these cut-down rifles in the confines of a tunnel has been debunked many times over the years. So give us a source for the debunking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 25 August , 2014 Share Posted 25 August , 2014 The use of these cut-down rifles in the confines of a tunnel has been debunked many times over the years. I know ... that's why I said 'claimed to have been made and used ...', then posed the objection, and then put forward an alternative explanation offered by some experts for the undoubted existence of these objects ... Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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