'Lethal Bombs'

[gem22]

Reading the Op orders for 11 Royal Fusiliers for attack on 1 August 1917 I came across the list of ammunition to be carried by each man. Things such as S.A.A, Mills bombs, and rifle grenades I understand but this Op Order particularly specified Lethal Bombs 4 per company.

What on earth was meant by 'Lethal Bombs'? I thought all bombs were lethal unless they were practice bombs.

Can anyone provide an explanation please?

Garth

[centurion]

This many be relevant http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=197270#entry1932641

[gem22]

Thanks for the link but I'm not sure if it is relevant to this case. My concern is why would an infantry company carry 4 large phosgene shells forward? That is of course dependent on me having understood everything you posted in that thread!!

If you had been discussing Trench Mortars or Stokes bombs, exclusively, then I would be happy; but the discussion appeared to be about artillery shells and that is where I have my concerns. I can appreciate the use of the term Lethal to differentiate gas from H.E or Shrapnel but my understanding is that 'bomb' has a different connotation to 'shell'. To me it seems that the discussion you had concerned shells not bombs; but then I'm no expert.

Thanks for the help.

[centurion]

No but if lethal shells were phosgene filled then so could lethal bombs (and could even be 4 inch stokes mortar bombs for clearing out bunkers/ dug out complexes). The 4 inch stokes was used for chemical warfare

[gem22]

^{Stokes bombs I understand. Thanks. Mind you I cannot see the sense in it. Wouldn't that have made the dugouts unusable by the attacking forces?}

[centurion]

^{Stokes bombs I understand. Thanks. Mind you I cannot see the sense in it. Wouldn't that have made the dugouts unusable by the attacking forces?}

No more so than if they failed to clear the enemy out of them. If you had an underground complex complete with internal blast walls etc rolling a gas bomb down the steps might be the only way to clear them out. Phosgene would eventually clear, it might take longer than in the open air but it would go

[RodB]

I've been trying for some time to find anything about deployment of the 4-inch Stokes mortar. Anybody know how widely it was deployed, where and by who, sources ? I'm not really in a position to consult primary sources such as unit diaries and operational orders.

thanks

Rod

[demex400]

hi All
I'm not sure that there are 4-inch mortars in the infantry company in 1917, by cons were more likely to find 2 inch Medium Trench Mortar "Toffe Apple" or No28 grenades (although the term "bomb" was reserved for mortar trench projectiles)

J Paul

[MikeMeech]

hi All

I'm not sure that there are 4-inch mortars in the infantry company in 1917, by cons were more likely to find 2 inch Medium Trench Mortar "Toffe Apple" or No28 grenades (although the term "bomb" was reserved for mortar trench projectiles)

J Paul

Hi All

The No. 28 Grenade is mentioned here. According to S.S. 135 'The Division in Attack' 1920 Edition (so taking into account the war experience), page 70 has a section on Gas Grenades.

The No. 28 Mk. II grenades filled with K.J.:

"The gas contained in these grenades is not lethal, but it causes violent coughing. Our respirator gives complete protection against this form of gas, but the German respirator is penetrated immediately. The effect of these grendes lasts only a short time: our own troops could enter the dug-out at once wearing respirators, and in less than an hour's time they might remain there unprotected."

However the No. 28 Mk. II could also be filled with K.S.K. which:

"...can be used for contaminating any dug-outs with a strongly lachrymatory atmosphere if, for any reason, it is necessary to abandon them."

So I suspect the latter type was rather more 'lethal' and may be the cause of the use of the term 'Lethal Bombs'. I presume they had different markings to indicate K.J. or K.S.K. filling. The term 'bomb' may have been used because that is what they had been calling conventional 'grenades', they could be quite 'loose' with terms during WW1.

Mike

[Bayne]

The 4-inch Stokes was only used by the mortar companies of the special brigades to deliver gas or smoke.They were attached to infantry assault units as and when required.

SK stands for South Kensington and is the code for the chemical ethyl iodoacetate, synthesised in the laboratories of Imperial College in late 1914 as part of a War Office project to produce chemical weapons. (Long before Haber appeared on the scene in Germany). It is a very powerful tear gas and was offered in grenades to GHQ France in late 1914/early 1915 for use in trench fighting but they declined on the grounds that the use of chemicals was not civilised warfare.