Lethal Shell?

[johnboy]

I was looking at a list of munition factories.The list stated what they did and amongst the references were 18 pounders 12 pounders etc and a factory that made Lethal Shells. What was a lethal shell?

[Ron Clifton]

Hello johnboy

It probably refers to gas shells.

Ron

[johnboy]

It might do, but there are references on the list to chemical and phosphorous bombs. Have to dig a bit more.

[centurion]

Various modern and contemporary sources define a "lethal shell" as one filled with phosgene. There are examples of contemporary memos etc regarding a shortage of these. Seeking Victory on the Western Front - the British Army and Chemical Warfare in World War 1 by Albert Palazzo contains examples.

[johnboy]

The factory coding, on closer inspection, is one for chemical bombs. Out of over 100 factories it is the only one with 'Lethal Bombs'. There appears to be no Shrapnel bombs listed unles another name is used?

[centurion]

The factory coding, on closer inspection, is one for chemical bombs. Out of over 100 factories it is the only one with 'Lethal Bombs'. There appears to be no Shrapnel bombs listed unles another name is used?

Do you mean shells or bombs?

[johnboy]

Do you mean shells or bombs?

I assume the Lethal Bombs were bombs.

[centurion]

I assume the Lethal Bombs were bombs.

Bombs normally refer to either aerial bombs or mortar bombs. In either case there was no such thing as a shrapnel bomb only shrapnel shells. No aerial bombs were produced with chemicals let alone phosgene contents. The only mortar bombs with gas/chemicals were toffee apples and stokes mortar bombs AFAIK neither of these contained phosgene.

[johnboy]

Bombs normally refer to either aerial bombs or mortar bombs. In either case there was no such thing as a shrapnel bomb only shrapnel shells. No aerial bombs were produced with chemicals let alone phosgene contents. The only mortar bombs with gas/chemicals were toffee apples and stokes mortar bombs AFAIK neither of these contained phosgene.

I am just going by what is stated on the list. They use the word bomb.

[centurion]

I am just going by what is stated on the list. They use the word bomb.

In which case they probably produced Stokes rounds as these could contain chemicals (very often smoke) especially Stokes 4 inch mortar bombs. As I said there was no such thing as a shrapnel bomb which is why there isn't one on the list. If they are the only one classed for producing lethal bombs this is not surprising (what is surprising is that there are any). Possibly there was the intention to produce such - unless of course what is being referred to are gas cylinders for Livens Projectors

But I am confused - your original post refers to lethal shells of which a great many were produced of various calibres

[johnboy]

Many apologies, after looking again , it IS shell. I must stop trying to do 2 things at once! It is the only one that is described as Lethal Shell Assembly. It is classified as a chenical munitions factory. Or should that be ammunitions factory?

Sorry to have confused you.

[centurion]

Now I am even more confused - there were a vast number of lethal shells produced of different calibre and I'm pretty sure from lots of different factories

Just to illustrate

Jan/Feb 1917 Haig demanded

90,000 4.5 lethal (phosgene) shells and was told he'd get 72,000 but only received 27,608

52,000 60 pdr lethal (phosgene) shells and was told he'd get 34,000 but only received 11,946

In March he increased demand to 165,000 and 100,000 respectively

This is either a very big factory or there was more than one.

Interestingly demand was met for Lachrymatory shells.

[johnboy]

I'll have a look at the list again later but think this factory is only one listed as Lethal shell. Some of the others may give the chemical they were handling.

[centurion]

What date is this list?

[johnboy]

The one I have read is not dated.

After three hours on the net I believe it comes from a book first published in 1955.

2 factories are listed as Lethal Shells

1 listed for Mustard Gas

Otherfactories are listed as handling or filling using chemicals.

Some of the chemicals mentioned;

Acetate of lime

Nitrocellulose powder

Picric Acid

Ammonium Nitrate

Acetone

Synthetic Phenol

Calcium Nitrate Tetrahydrate

Ammonium Perchlorate

[Ron Clifton]

Hello again

The standard nomenclature is "munitions factory" which covers factories producing other warlike materials as well as ammunition.

It does not seem unlikely that each factory might have produced only a selection of the munitions needed, and in particular it is quite possible that production of phosgene shells might have been confined to a small number of factories, perhaps even only one, as per the list. All kinds of shell and bomb production carried inherent manufacturing risks, not least of which would be the proximity of population other than the factory workers themselves.

Ron

[centurion]

Lethal shells (phosgene) did not begin to be delivered to the British Amy until the begining of 1917 although requests for them had been made as early as late 1915. The figures I posted earlier show what was expected and what was achieved in that first delivery. Manufacture of phosgene shells was more dangerous and required very specialised facilities and it would seem unlikely that this would be done in a generalised munitions factory. Haig's already considerable demands for them increased and by the end of 1917 were being satisfied. At the begining of 1917 its quite likely that only one or two plants were up and running but by 1918 there must have been a number to satisfy the demand (and to ensure continuity of supply in case of accident or disaster). Hence my question about the date of that list.

[johnboy]

From the list , the first output of lethal shells from the factory was January 1917.

I am wondering if other factories were producing them in small numbers but were being listed under the heading of thier largest output eg 18 poundersHE.

Also for security reasons perhaps the description ' Lethal Shell' was limited. These factories were run asn assembly lines , so the workers may not have known what the finished shell was. Probably best they didn't!! Their training was probably only how to work the machines and use the equipment.

The reason for my interest is that although the factory is on the list I can find no mention of it elsewhere. No stories from historical societies, no memoirs, no accident reports.

This is strange as it was situated close to a large factory with a lot of references. I am wondering if it was actually within this site but was given a different name to reflect the different work it was doing.

[centurion]

From the list , the first output of lethal shells from the factory was January 1917.

I am wondering if other factories were producing them in small numbers but were being listed under the heading of thier largest output eg 18 poundersHE.

Also for security reasons perhaps the description ' Lethal Shell' was limited. These factories were run asn assembly lines , so the workers may not have known what the finished shell was. Probably best they didn't!! Their training was probably only how to work the machines and use the equipment.

The reason for my interest is that although the factory is on the list I can find no mention of it elsewhere. No stories from historical societies, no memoirs, no accident reports.

This is strange as it was situated close to a large factory with a lot of references. I am wondering if it was actually within this site but was given a different name to reflect the different work it was doing.

No the first deliveries of Lethal shells from any factory was in Jan 1917. See my earlier post. Workers would need to know what they were doing when producing phosgene filled shells. Its very simple in Jan 1917 there was most probably only one factory up and running and producing them. At this time only two calibres of lethal shell were produced 4.5 inch for howitzers and 60 pounder (5 inch) gun ammunition. Initially it was considered that an 18 pounder shell would not hold enough phosgene to be effective. I don' know if this changed later. From a safety view point it would have been best to have a separate set of buildings.

[johnboy]

From the list , the first output of lethal shells from the factory was January 1917 From my quoted post.

As i say, this factory was close to another very large one. I can find no reference to it other than the list. If this was only factory producing lethal shells, would you not expect there to be quite a lot of references to it.? I am not sure that the workers would need to know what they were doing/making only how to accomplish it. It seems strange that there is a lack info available. I am still inclined to think that it could have been within the larger factory as there was already rail sidings and canal access for delivery and despatch. The larger factory started output October 1915 so by August 1916 were fairly well established.

Would a 12" shell have been used?

[centurion]

Have you really read my previous posts? NO factory delivered any lethal shells before Jan 1917 . The total number produced was well below that anticipated by the Ministry Munitions. This would suggest that this factory was the FIRST which does not mean that it would remain the only one. It could well have been a satellite of a larger factory producing other things. If you would actually name which factory you are talking about it would be much easier to help you.

[johnboy]

Have you really read my previous posts? NO factory delivered any lethal shells before Jan 1917 . The total number produced was well below that anticipated by the Ministry Munitions. This would suggest that this factory was the FIRST which does not mean that it would remain the only one. It could well have been a satellite of a larger factory producing other things. If you would actually name which factory you are talking about it would be much easier to help you.

Yes I have read your posts carefully. I have never said that the shells were produced before Jan`1917.

I have said a COUPLE of times first output JANUARY 1917.

I may now have my answer as to where it was but need to make sure that information is from a reliable source. Still find it strange that there are no accident reports or references to it that I can find.

Thanks for your help. I don't want to give the name of the factorym at the moment as I might get the answer!! I'de really like to do this myself but with general input from others that might open up my research by giving other angles of attack/ Apart from that I know more about shells than I did yesterday.!

I will post again if I get something more concrete.

[centurion]

Phosgene was nasty stuff and it has taken nearly 90 years to decontaminate some sites where shells containing it were filled, stored or disposed of. Sites specifically associated with it include

Bowes Moor, Durham

Harpur Hill, Derbyshire

Clumber Park Worksop, Nottinghamshire

Norton Disney Lincolnshire

Spalford Warren Notts

Rhydmywyn Mold Flintshire

However because of the nature of the stuff sites involved with it were usually isolated and because of this some were later also used for Mustard Gas and are listed in connection with this. All in all some 14 sites are known to have been involved with mustard gas/ phosgene shells.

[centurion]

Thanks for the PM. There appear to have been two separate plants in the area, a large general munitions factory making all sorts of things and a lethal shell filling factory based logically on an ex chemical works. There are certainly accident reports for the former at NA. The Ministry of Munitions seem to have changed the names under which it referred to both of them before the end of the war so your list may be relatively early. My PM allocation is full and I need to clear out some but I'll send a PM with names, locations and the NA reference for the accident reports by close of play.

[centurion]

I was going to send a PM but given that there is another open thread to which you are contributing which covers the subject I don't see why this needs to be private. There appear to have been at least two munitions works in the Greenford area. 1] A trench warfare factory which amongst other things produced empty shells to be filled with phosgene but also made other things (it for example employed people with expertise in glass and optics) and 2] National Filling Factory No.28 which filled the empty shells with phosgene. If you look in the NA at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/details/C7680745?descriptiontype=Full&ref=T+1/12321/item you will find an example of an accident report for the former site. National Filling Factory No.28 was located at (TQ 157 837) and it would seem was connected to the railway system with a narrow gauge connection. It had previously been a dye works and after the war became Purex Ltd (1921) and in 1925 Rockware Glass.Syndicate Ltd. I have identified at least 3 other filling plants that filled lethal shells but have become a little reluctant to bother to share.